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+--- Thread: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! (/showthread.php?tid=5491)
300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - rbuljo - 04-05-2014
Hi diesel gurus, this is a fun forum to read...
My first post here so please be kind.
I have an 86 G-class with an 617.952 with only 75k miles on the clock.. the car have been sitting in a barn for 8 years, did anybody say rust?? had the car down to atoms during a complete overhaul.
Extremely satisfied with the result and build, but the engine......pff it is slow. I`m used to the toyota 1hd-t engine. and this is a lightyear behind on performance and consumption..
I literally got no power below 2500rpm, i am not used to this in a diesel, and maintaining highway speeds uphill is pointless.
what i have done is
adjusted ALDA all the way out, get a sweet black puff in the start ov revs when WOT. helped some.
replaced fuel filters, both coarse and fine.
valve clearances done 1800miles ago, will check them again today in case I have blown some depository gunk off the valves the last miles.
trottle linkages checked and adjusted.
It is intercooled and got a 2.5" exhaust. no leaks anywhere. running @ 1.2bar/17psi.
the MW IP is stock sadly, but I have not dared adjust it due to so many strange feedbacks on the sticky in this forum(lance`s victims?) confused what to do with it and what to adjust.
hope someone can chime in with some tips and tricks for my beloved GWagen..
regards from Norway..
engine bay
Intercooler in front
The GW..
RE: 75k Intercooled 617.95 super lazy.. - cho - 04-05-2014
hi mate
nice beast you have
with that engine and such a heavy car it ismeant to be torque beast .. for better results I think you have to
go M superpump and faster spooled/better turbo way.
is it 5spd or auto btw.... what is your average consumption...15L/100km ?
cheers
.
RE: 75k Intercooled 617.95 super lazy.. - rbuljo - 04-05-2014
(04-05-2014, 04:44 AM)cho hi mate
nice beast you have
meant to be torque beast .. for better results I think you have to
go M superpump and faster spooled/better turbo way.
is it 5spd or auto btw.... what is your average consumption...15L/100km ?
cheers
.
Hi, thank you
Yes Torque is everything with these kind of cars..
I have a M pump laying around, but I cannot afford the money to send it to dieselmeken just yet. it went kind of crazy lot of resources to getting this car to the condition it is in now.
Consumption based on the last 963km is 15.07/100km. your estimate was spot on
but to "defend" the car, much of this milage is on highway speed, when you have a car with the drag coefficient similar to a barn the consumption is going to be high.but of course when i have no power at all, you have to use the right foot quite heavy on the accelerator..
It got a 5speed manual.
i thought the turbo was quite optimal for torque and this setup? it is a B0343 with a Turbine Housing TB0313 if I am not mistaken.
where could i find a correct guide to max out the stock IP? I am very concerned following the sticky guide as many ppl seems to have trouble afterwards.
my trouble is that i seem to have a good recipe to at least have a drivable car, but this is not tolerable at all..
taking any suggestions with gratitude...
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - OM616 - 04-05-2014
(04-05-2014, 05:34 AM)rbuljo where could i find a correct guide to max out the stock IP? I am very concerned following the sticky guide as many ppl seems to have trouble afterwards.
You are wise and correct about Lance’s information on the MW/RW pump/governor, being nothing but trouble..
Spend a little time poking around in this forum and you should be able to find a link to a MW/RW operation doc. (Full Disclosure, I wrote it)
It describes how the governor works, what each adjustment does, and how each adjustment affects the others. To my knowledge no one has had any problems after reading it.
I do not however say how to adjust it, but rather how it works so the reader can decide how they want to adjust it. If the reader does not understand how to adjust the governor, they should not attempt it at all.
After your governor is properly tuned, you will be very happy with the results. The main adjustment you want to make is the Torque Control, then other adjustments to balance out the system. No need to change the pump IMOP.
(04-05-2014, 05:34 AM)rbuljo where could i find a correct guide to max out the stock IP? I am very concerned following the sticky guide as many ppl seems to have trouble afterwards.
You are wise and correct about Lance’s information on the MW/RW pump/governor, being nothing but trouble..
Spend a little time poking around in this forum and you should be able to find a link to a MW/RW operation doc. (Full Disclosure, I wrote it)
It describes how the governor works, what each adjustment does, and how each adjustment affects the others. To my knowledge no one has had any problems after reading it.
I do not however say how to adjust it, but rather how it works so the reader can decide how they want to adjust it. If the reader does not understand how to adjust the governor, they should not attempt it at all.
After your governor is properly tuned, you will be very happy with the results. The main adjustment you want to make is the Torque Control, then other adjustments to balance out the system. No need to change the pump IMOP.
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - rbuljo - 04-07-2014
Hi OM616, hoped you would chime in. I think I might have seen your document some time ago.
as this is a daily driver I am hesitant to take out the pump and fiddle with these adjustments to find it not working properly afterwards, it is a pain to get to these adjustments as it has to come completely out. seems impossible to adjust it cause of the oil filter housing. dont know how much work it is to take it out.?
are there any other adjustments or tune ups i can consider before tearing out the IP?
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - cjcosta - 04-07-2014
Subscribed
I have the same car, the same engine and gearbox
with the exception of the intercooler.Have talked with OM616 too but no corage to mess with the IP yet.
I am listening.
Best Regards,
Carlos
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - cho - 04-07-2014
(04-07-2014, 01:36 AM)rbuljo .... as it has to come completely out. seems impossible to adjust it cause of the oil filter housing. dont know how much work it is to take it out.?
some guys manage to take it out without touching oil filter housing
I did not, so I had to drain oil and new OFH gasket is necessary.
for the first timer ...I would clear all day schedule...minimum
.
(04-07-2014, 01:36 AM)rbuljo are there any other adjustments or tune ups i can consider before tearing out the IP?
yes,you can swap puch for merc insignia..it will give you 10hp at least
.
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - rbuljo - 04-08-2014
well shit...
I took a quick glance at the IP today with the timing in mind, noticed there was two marks faar from eachother, the PO have apparently notched in these marks and turned the IP towards the engine as far as it can go..
It had no possible further adjustments towards the block at all.
I made some new marks, losened the three nuts and pulled it back some, immidiately noticed that the engined revved up ca 200rpms on idle... I just thightened it there and took it for a spin. it was a different engine... I actually got power below 2500rpms, it is just a different car now..
gotta go source a fuel pipe from a scrap yard so i can make a drip tube and set the timing @ 26btdc. little scary to drive without knowing the timing.
killed a head gasket on my boat 2 years ago cause PO had set the timing on his own! some people....
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - cho - 04-08-2014
..
well if you do proper job /pump remove .. 24 degrees on the Compression stroke and line up the notches ...you are ok.
and now the echo...Compression stroke Compression stroke Compression stroke......
.
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - kestreltom - 04-11-2014
(04-08-2014, 08:11 AM)rbuljo well shit... (snip)... it was a different engine... I actually got power below 2500rpms, it is just a different car now..
Good for you! Yes, I encourage you to do the drip timing and set the IP to 26 - 27 degrees btdc. That will give back some much needed low end umph.
Next step - do the valve timing with the micrometer method and install the offset woodruff key that advances you to factory spec plus a degree or two. This will also give you some idea of how much chain stretch you have and whether or not to worry about it.
Then use the method outlined by OM616 in his document (I think he would rather someone else vouch for him - I can do that). OM616 knows the MW governor and I highly recommend his method. All credit and questions regarding this document should be (courteously) directed to OM616. And stay away from the proceedures in the IP adjustment sticky on this site... just look at the pictures to ID the adjustment screws and don't confuse yours with the M pump.
Here is some info on the adjustments I made to my MW. Plan on removing the oil filter housing just in case - so have a set of new gaskets and O-rings on hand for that. After getting the MW governor where you want it, you will be able to make all the black smoke you can stand. Have an EGT and boost gauge and watch them carefully.
On the turbo, check out this thread.
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - rbuljo - 04-12-2014
hi thanks for your reply..
yesterday i checked the timing on the pump with the drip timing method.
this was rather new to me, but pretty straight forward. but to get a normal drip i had to put the IP almoust all the way towards the engine again...?
when i had it just 2mm off the marks i made, it squirted diesel out of the drip tube, i mean it flowed out.. and just nudged the ip back towards the enigne and it went to dripping.. it was no thing in between, either a slow drip or full flow!? but couldnt get a steady flow either, had to pump pretty fast.
is this normal?
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - kestreltom - 04-12-2014
(04-12-2014, 02:01 AM)rbuljo hi thanks for your reply..
when i had it just 2mm off the marks i made, it squirted diesel out of the drip tube, i mean it flowed out.. and just nudged the ip back towards the enigne and it went to dripping.. it was no thing in between, either a slow drip or full flow!? but couldnt get a steady flow either, had to pump pretty fast.
is this normal?
As I recall the factory manual specifies the exact drip rate - as in 1x per second. You should be pumping the transfer pump pretty hard & fast to get this. You also must remove the cyl #1 delivery valve. Also I think you have to wire the throttle linkage to the max position. There are some good threads/stickies/DIYs on doing the factory drip timing method out there.
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - cjcosta - 06-11-2014
Any progress?
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - rbuljo - 06-12-2014
nope, just put the timing where i hope it is correct. see post #11. it is ok for now, but cant allow myself to buy a superpump just yet.. it is boating season now..
and that surely is a money drain!!
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - Simpler=Better - 06-12-2014
The best days are when you buy your boat and when you sell it
(just kidding)glad to see a G-can on here
If you want to come to the dark side, a variable vane turbo can get you boost more or less immediately. Expect to spend at least $300 if you fabricate it all yourself, and is complicated. Not impossible, but takes time to get right.
For more general power you can look at spraying 50% alcohol & water as a booster. Homemade hackjob will run you around $150-$200 for new parts
17psi boost seems a bit high, try turning it down to 12-14. You might be wasting energy making extra boost for no reason.
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - MFSuper90 - 06-12-2014
(06-12-2014, 08:13 AM)Simpler=Better 17psi boost seems a bit high, try turning it down to 12-14. You might be wasting energy making extra boost for no reason.
From an earlier post I read, he isn't running a stock charger, so I think he should probably be fine. Just guessing, because I don't know the exact specs of his turbo.
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - Simpler=Better - 06-12-2014
(06-12-2014, 10:08 AM)MFSuper90(06-12-2014, 08:13 AM)Simpler=Better 17psi boost seems a bit high, try turning it down to 12-14. You might be wasting energy making extra boost for no reason.
From an earlier post I read, he isn't running a stock charger, so I think he should probably be fine. Just guessing, because I don't know the exact specs of his turbo.
Can a stock MW pump fully fuel 17psi of boost? I thought they maxed out around 14psi
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - MFSuper90 - 06-12-2014
(06-12-2014, 10:59 AM)Simpler=BetterA different charger can completely change how much boost an engine makes.(06-12-2014, 10:08 AM)MFSuper90(06-12-2014, 08:13 AM)Simpler=Better 17psi boost seems a bit high, try turning it down to 12-14. You might be wasting energy making extra boost for no reason.
From an earlier post I read, he isn't running a stock charger, so I think he should probably be fine. Just guessing, because I don't know the exact specs of his turbo.
Can a stock MW pump fully fuel 17psi of boost? I thought they maxed out around 14psi
Say you put a charger off of a 3 cylinder Yanmar on a 617. It would probably build 30+lbs of boost before it went KERRBANG and blew the compressor wheel out the side of housing.
Or a hx50 with stock fueling probably wouldn't build any boost because it would be too large to spool.
But I get what your saying, my stock garrett would push 18-20 psi on stock fueling with the wastegate disabled.
14psi for the stock charger is what you can build and stay within a decent range for the efficiency map of the turbo. Anymore than that excess heat and wear on the turbo almost contradicts the extra boost.
If his charger is building 17psi with stock fueling, it is probably around the same size as the stock charger. But depending on that turbo's map, it probably has a higher pressure ratio wheel in it, making it more efficient at higher boost levels
Clear as mud?
Sorry for the slight thread derail
RE: 300GD With Intercooled 617.952. frustrated! - Simpler=Better - 06-12-2014
I hear what you're saying, and it makes perfect sense. Newer turbos are way more efficient.
But what I'm getting at is this(diminishing returns):
MW pump is stock inside, ALDA tweaked/removed/whatever.
Wasegate set to 10psi->turbo strains exhaust by X*10, intake temps Y*10->black smoke when flooring it(not enough air). Missing out on power.
Wastegate set to 14psi->turbo strains exhaust by X*14, intake temps Y*14->no black smoke when floored, just the right amount of air. Maximum power, as all the fuel is burned.
Wastegate set to 17psi->turbo strains exhaust by X*17, intake temps Y*17->no black smoke when floored, but too much air. Less than max power, he's wasting energy by straining the exhaust excessively. Higher intake temps slow you down too.
The amount of power wasted to make the extra 3-5 pounds might not matter, but it's probably an easy adjustment to try. If it smokes, turn it back up.
I hear what you're saying, and it makes perfect sense. Newer turbos are way more efficient.
But what I'm getting at is this(diminishing returns):
MW pump is stock inside, ALDA tweaked/removed/whatever.
Wasegate set to 10psi->turbo strains exhaust by X*10, intake temps Y*10->black smoke when flooring it(not enough air). Missing out on power.
Wastegate set to 14psi->turbo strains exhaust by X*14, intake temps Y*14->no black smoke when floored, just the right amount of air. Maximum power, as all the fuel is burned.
Wastegate set to 17psi->turbo strains exhaust by X*17, intake temps Y*17->no black smoke when floored, but too much air. Less than max power, he's wasting energy by straining the exhaust excessively. Higher intake temps slow you down too.
The amount of power wasted to make the extra 3-5 pounds might not matter, but it's probably an easy adjustment to try. If it smokes, turn it back up.
They say the eyesight is the first to go - mbz123 - 06-16-2014
AwwwwHawwwww! Sweet ride komrade. Was originally gonna say I've never seen a barn painted in that shade of green. FML, my eyes aint wat theys used to be.
Trackin dis one doe. Looking forward to any results from fiddling
MBZ123