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+--- Thread: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? (/showthread.php?tid=3977)
Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 10-06-2012
Does anyone know of a shop in the states (no offense dieselmeken), that can laser cut the head of a rotary injection pump so that bigger plungers can be fitted?
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - OM616 - 10-06-2012
(10-06-2012, 12:39 PM)MFSuper90 Does anyone know of a shop in the states (no offense dieselmeken), that can laser cut the head of a rotary injection pump so that bigger plungers can be fitted?
Laser?? I am not familiar with the rotary pump, but depending on how much material has to be removed, there are much better processes to use.
If a minor amount then grind/hone would be good, if a lot of material then wire EDM undersize and then finish grind/hone to size.
I have a full machine shop and would be interested in looking at what you want to do.
I take it this is a common mod for the rotary pumps?
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 10-07-2012
Common, not so much. But it has been done before i know. Most people just switch the heads on the pumps to get a bigger piston/plunger (i'm not sure of the correct term).
My problem is that I have a 400 cu. in. 4 cylinder pulling tractor, and no one makes a rotary head for a 4 cylinder bigger than 9.5mm, that i can find at least. They make larger pistons, but i've only been able to find them in 6 cylinder pumps.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - OM616 - 10-07-2012
(10-07-2012, 07:58 AM)MFSuper90 Common, not so much. But it has been done before i know. Most people just switch the heads on the pumps to get a bigger piston/plunger (i'm not sure of the correct term).
My problem is that I have a 400 cu. in. 4 cylinder pulling tractor, and no one makes a rotary head for a 4 cylinder bigger than 9.5mm, that i can find at least. They make larger pistons, but i've only been able to find them in 6 cylinder pumps.
Gotcha. Do you have any pics of the head with out the barrel & plunger that I can see? I imagine this is a pretty strait forward operation.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - winequip_td - 10-07-2012
If this is a VE style pump Giles at Performance Diesel can build a pump with up to a 14mm pump head which supplies enough fuel for Cummins puller trucks.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - dieselmeken - 10-07-2012
Sounds like a CAV DPA Rotarypump. What size of pluger do you have? Do you have 9,5mm now and have you adjusted them max? How much power/fuel do you need?
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 10-08-2012
At winequip_td its like a VE but its a 4 cylinder pump
And yes dieselmeken, you are correct it is a Lucas CAV pump. It has 9.5mm plunger now, with the stops ground off the shoes so it can get as much stroke as possible.
How much power? Anywhere from 130 to 150 would be awesome, and i would like enough fuel so i can put a turbo on it in the future.
Ps. the block is a 318 perkins
om616, I do not have a picture of the inside of one. I'll see if i can get one soon.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - dieselmeken - 10-08-2012
Then you have the same problem as I had with a 7,3L Ford V8.
I did a wireEDM on the camring, so I got moore space for the rollers & shoes, worked perfect, gave me around 30% moore fuel.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 10-08-2012
(10-08-2012, 07:55 AM)dieselmeken Then you have the same problem as I had with a 7,3L Ford V8.
I did a wireEDM on the camring, so I got moore space for the rollers & shoes, worked perfect, gave me around 30% moore fuel.
I'm going to need alot more than 30% i'm afraid
but do you think someone could wire EDM the barrel?
Because i would love to have something like an 11 or 12mm
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - dieselmeken - 10-08-2012
How much fuel do the pump deliver at the moment?
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 10-08-2012
(10-08-2012, 08:25 AM)dieselmeken How much fuel do the pump deliver at the moment?
I don't have access to a test bench, so i don't know specifics.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - dieselmeken - 10-08-2012
(10-08-2012, 11:50 AM)MFSuper90If the CAV pump is flat out and not enough, change to another pump, why not do as I did on a 1,9tdi, A OM616 pump, 7,5mm element, 200cc of fuel, Or a nice4 cyl A-seriepump?(10-08-2012, 08:25 AM)dieselmeken How much fuel do the pump deliver at the moment?
I don't have access to a test bench, so i don't know specifics.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=282104351894862
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - OM616 - 10-08-2012
(10-08-2012, 08:05 AM)MFSuper90(10-08-2012, 07:55 AM)dieselmeken Then you have the same problem as I had with a 7,3L Ford V8.
I did a wireEDM on the camring, so I got moore space for the rollers & shoes, worked perfect, gave me around 30% moore fuel.
I'm going to need alot more than 30% i'm afraid
but do you think someone could wire EDM the barrel?
Because i would love to have something like an 11 or 12mm
Does the element barrel fit into the head, or is the head the barrel?
If the element barrel fits into the head and you need the head modified for the larger barrel, than Wire EDM / finish grind hone will do it. But if the head is the barrel, then you are into lapping territory. I have done lapping work before, but if you are not married to this pump, you probably would be better off with a different pump as Dieselmeken suggested.
I would consider building you a 10mm MW for you when I am doing other ones I have to do if you are interested. Might be able to get bigger elements too if you really wanted.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 10-09-2012
The only problem is that I pull in the farm stock class, and putting a A-pump on is not allowed.
And yes Om616 the barrel is part of the head.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - OM616 - 10-09-2012
(10-09-2012, 07:04 AM)MFSuper90 The only problem is that I pull in the farm stock class, and putting a A-pump on is not allowed.
And yes Om616 the barrel is part of the head.
How difficult would it be to acquire another pump, or at least a head?
If the plunger you want to run is not too expensive and you can get another head to use as the genie pig, then I would be interested in taking it on.
The process would be to have it Wire EDMed to a ruff undersize, then grind/hone/lap to finish size. Very precision work to get the fit and surface finish required.
If you are interested, we can discuss the details privately.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - winmutt - 10-11-2012
You can find a 12mm ve pump all day long. Not sure if thats what you meant by "rotary".
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 10-12-2012
(10-11-2012, 09:28 PM)winmutt You can find a 12mm ve pump all day long. Not sure if thats what you meant by "rotary".
yeah, thats just what i've always called them. The problem is the 12mm heads are 6 cylinder heads. Unless you found a 4 cylinder 12mm head? that would be awesome
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - winmutt - 10-12-2012
Looks like there are a few over at 4btswaps.com apparently there is a stock 12mm head.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - majesty78 - 10-14-2012
I am not very into this, but didn't the VW LT28 (2.8L 4cyl) come with a 12mm pump from stock?
AFAIK this was an MB engine.
AFAIK 2: Didn't some Renault engines also come with 12mm pump from stock? (But I think there was the issue that the Renault pump ran in opposite direction, or was this the LT28 pump?)
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 10-14-2012
(10-12-2012, 11:13 PM)winmutt Looks like there are a few over at 4btswaps.com apparently there is a stock 12mm head.
I just went and looked around on there, some great info! does anyone know which way those pumps rotate?
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 12-28-2014
Hello, It has been two years since I have visited this thread. I thought it was due for an update for all those kind enough to reply with help.
I swapped the original CAV pump out for a Bosch VE 12mm pump, off of an industrial 4BT cummins. It worked very well, it starts about 10 times better than the CAV pump.
When timing was set for max power, it wouldn't start without ether below 70F. With the VE pump it starts no problem clear down to 50F
Also with the pump maxed out for fuel, to the point if it is turned up anymore it will idle down slowly, the engine picked up 20hp on the dyno. And that's naturally aspirated!
I have built a turbo header for it and plan to turbo it soon, so I will again be on the hunt for more fuel
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - barrote - 12-28-2014
just for, knowledge.
VW engines found in audi´s and seat. have up to 14mm rotary pumps.
regards
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 12-28-2014
Thank you barrote, if you happen to come up with any injection pump numbers that have the 14mm head I would appreciate it if you could send it to me.
I searched for a long time, but have never some up with anything.
Also if anyone is knowledgeable about modifying the VE pump I would love to learn about that too. Internally modified, that is.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - barrote - 12-28-2014
in there might be difficult , u folks like big engines
i belive there is a 14mm direct replacement for the bosch VE found in most seat leon 1.9 TDI and Ibizas too. the trouble could be that this are for DI engines and for two stage injectors. i´ll take a look for the numbers.
these fellas easilly put out 150cc.
regards.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 12-28-2014
(12-28-2014, 02:46 PM)barrote in there might be difficult , u folks like big engines
i belive there is a 14mm direct replacement for the bosch VE found in most seat leon 1.9 TDI and Ibizas too. the trouble could be that this are for DI engines and for two stage injectors. i´ll take a look for the numbers.
these fellas easilly put out 150cc.
regards.
My Perkins is a direct injection engine, but it does not have two stage injectors. The only 14mm head I can find for a VE is a aftermarket unit and they are not very reliable from what I have heard.
Why would they put such a large pump on a 1.9L?
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - Simpler=Better - 12-28-2014
(12-28-2014, 07:32 PM)MFSuper90Faster injection event, so that it's a short burst of fuel and not a long stream of fuel.(12-28-2014, 02:46 PM)barrote in there might be difficult , u folks like big engines
i belive there is a 14mm direct replacement for the bosch VE found in most seat leon 1.9 TDI and Ibizas too. the trouble could be that this are for DI engines and for two stage injectors. i´ll take a look for the numbers.
these fellas easilly put out 150cc.
regards.
My Perkins is a direct injection engine, but it does not have two stage injectors. The only 14mm head I can find for a VE is a aftermarket unit and they are not very reliable from what I have heard.
Why would they put such a large pump on a 1.9L?
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - [486] - 12-29-2014
(12-28-2014, 07:32 PM)MFSuper90 Why would they put such a large pump on a 1.9L?There's one guy getting something nuts like 400HP out of one, but he's running a bosch P-pump, when it runs at all. :p
Largest factory head is 12mm, and you can get aftermarket camplates with up to 4mm of lift, but people seem to have issues with them at high RPM, I'd bet some stiffer springs would help with it, but I've never seen one in person.
I thought in the beginning of the thread that you were running a stanadyne/roosamaster DB2 style pump. There's a guy that did some work with DB4 head parts on a 7.3 IDI to get more fuel, I don't think that'll really happen because he mentioned running out the supply of NOS 8cyl DB4 parts in the US. Maybe use 8cyl DB4 head and rotor with the cam ring from your 4cyl pump? DVs might keep the fuel in on the unused ports.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 12-29-2014
(12-29-2014, 01:25 PM)[486](12-28-2014, 07:32 PM)MFSuper90 Why would they put such a large pump on a 1.9L?There's one guy getting something nuts like 400HP out of one, but he's running a bosch P-pump, when it runs at all. :p
Largest factory head is 12mm, and you can get aftermarket camplates with up to 4mm of lift, but people seem to have issues with them at high RPM, I'd bet some stiffer springs would help with it, but I've never seen one in person.
I thought in the beginning of the thread that you were running a stanadyne/roosamaster DB2 style pump. There's a guy that did some work with DB4 head parts on a 7.3 IDI to get more fuel, I don't think that'll really happen because he mentioned running out the supply of NOS 8cyl DB4 parts in the US. Maybe use 8cyl DB4 head and rotor with the cam ring from your 4cyl pump? DVs might keep the fuel in on the unused ports.
When I started This thread I was running the standard Lucas CAV injection pump, with slightly modified internal. I recently updated this thread because I made the switch a year ago to a Bosch VE pump.
I only run the engine at about 3500rpm wide open, which is still cranking pretty hard compared to the stock 2300. But I have still heard bad stories about the big cam plate like you have.
I've looked into other pumps such as a DB2/4. But the idea of plugging off ports doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I'd love for dieselmeken to chime in on this as well. I talked to a pump shop here in Ohio that agreed with me that plugging extra ports off sounded like a bad idea.
We have a 6.354 Perkins with a roosamaster pump that will crank out 330cc/1000. Now I just need a 4 cylinder version
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - [486] - 12-29-2014
(12-29-2014, 06:45 PM)MFSuper90 When I started This thread I was running the standard Lucas CAV injection pump, with slightly modified internal. I recently updated this thread because I made the switch a year ago to a Bosch VE pump.
I only run the engine at about 3500rpm wide open, which is still cranking pretty hard compared to the stock 2300. But I have still heard bad stories about the big cam plate like you have.
I've looked into other pumps such as a DB2/4. But the idea of plugging off ports doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I'd love for dieselmeken to chime in on this as well. I talked to a pump shop here in Ohio that agreed with me that plugging extra ports off sounded like a bad idea.
We have a 6.354 Perkins with a roosamaster pump that will crank out 330cc/1000. Now I just need a 4 cylinder version
I have not had one apart in about 5 years, so I truly don't know, but I'd think that if you fitted the cam ring from the 4cyl version to a big piston v8 pump all you'd have to do is use the 4 ports that put out fuel. The other 4 would have at most case pressure on them, and the delivery valves should hold back case pressure. Maybe not, it does get up there with the cold start advance solenoid powered. Either way, it shouldn't hydraulically lock with the 4 unused ports blocked. Take one apart and look at its guts to see.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - barrote - 12-30-2014
(12-28-2014, 07:32 PM)MFSuper90really i dont know, what i can tell u is there are a few ibizas doing it below the 10 second mark.(12-28-2014, 02:46 PM)barrote in there might be difficult , u folks like big engines
i belive there is a 14mm direct replacement for the bosch VE found in most seat leon 1.9 TDI and Ibizas too. the trouble could be that this are for DI engines and for two stage injectors. i´ll take a look for the numbers.
these fellas easilly put out 150cc.
regards.
My Perkins is a direct injection engine, but it does not have two stage injectors. The only 14mm head I can find for a VE is a aftermarket unit and they are not very reliable from what I have heard.
Why would they put such a large pump on a 1.9L?
this engines are really impressive, they can go pretty high in power for a litle 4 cyl diesel.
this days my friend is in holidays , actually i had spoken to him today and forgot about that.
its a kind of easy changing to two stage injectors, if it is possible acc your regulations. the gain in tq is impressive
.
, i´ve seen in the last coments of yours that u do need lots of fuel, how much do u want to have?
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 12-30-2014
(12-30-2014, 05:00 PM)barrote(12-28-2014, 07:32 PM)MFSuper90really i dont know, what i can tell u is there are a few ibizas doing it below the 10 second mark.(12-28-2014, 02:46 PM)barrote in there might be difficult , u folks like big engines
i belive there is a 14mm direct replacement for the bosch VE found in most seat leon 1.9 TDI and Ibizas too. the trouble could be that this are for DI engines and for two stage injectors. i´ll take a look for the numbers.
these fellas easilly put out 150cc.
regards.
My Perkins is a direct injection engine, but it does not have two stage injectors. The only 14mm head I can find for a VE is a aftermarket unit and they are not very reliable from what I have heard.
Why would they put such a large pump on a 1.9L?
this engines are really impressive, they can go pretty high in power for a litle 4 cyl diesel.
this days my friend is in holidays , actually i had spoken to him today and forgot about that.
its a kind of easy changing to two stage injectors, if it is possible acc your regulations. the gain in tq is impressive
Let's just says that too much is almost enough
But in all reality I would love to have too much fuel, because I can always turn it down.
Really wishing I could just swap over to a inline A or P pump, but that would be a total mess to configure since they rotate at different speeds and it would be frowned upon at most places I pull.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - [486] - 12-30-2014
(12-30-2014, 09:09 PM)MFSuper90 but that would be a total mess to configure since they rotate at different speedsYou can get all kinds of governor springs, and besides, a high or eliminated max speed governor gives you full fueling at high engine speeds. Might be good to look into a higher governor spring for your pump. Mechanical governors gradually reduce fueling until they are at the governed speed, so your gov is at 3500, but the amount of fuel you can get out of the pump is rapidly dropping as early as 2900 RPM.
Wire up an electronic rev limiter to the shutoff solenoid if you really need overspeed protection.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - barrote - 12-31-2014
Let's just says that too much is almost enough
But in all reality I would love to have too much fuel, because I can always turn it down.
Really wishing I could just swap over to a inline A or P pump, but that would be a total mess to configure since they rotate at different speeds and it would be frowned upon at most places I pull.
[/quote]
i dont know much of tractors , except one jonh deere at my farm, wich was 95 HP when new, and now when i want is able to pull far more than the 180 HP ones. but i only do that climbing hills with the lory behind or the scrapper. if i do that puling one plow, i will run out of tractor pretty soon.
this tractor of mine has one p pump 12mm elements or what. they can deliver over 250cc. something that will never be burned inside that engine. pump is at 120cc max but the thing is the governor is a part load governor.
so what u want is a p pump with a variable speed governor. something i belive it does not exist , ask dieselmeken.
in your case bosch VE 14mm element, with upgraded recover coils. will be able to inject close to 200cc. if u have a VE two stage pressure maybe u can go 250cc. problem is two stage VE are electric . correct me if i´m wrong.
i think a 8cyl pump will do the trick for u. the 4 unused cyliders can go back in the tank.
happy new year
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 01-01-2015
Thanks for all the replies guys!
I might think about putting a inline pump on it, if not I will have to find someone to modify my VE
Barrote, what is a recovery coil?
I'm not as familiar with VE pumps as I am a CAV
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - [486] - 01-02-2015
(01-01-2015, 07:23 PM)MFSuper90 Thanks for all the replies guys!
I might think about putting a inline pump on it, if not I will have to find someone to modify my VE
Barrote, what is a recovery coil?
I'm not as familiar with VE pumps as I am a CAV
Recovery coil is a different translation of return spring.
Them coil springs that keep the rollers from skipping along the camplate.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - barrote - 01-03-2015
na na na , almost the same.
rotary style pumps have a Spring forcing the injection piston, usually when changing the element and put it to use all along is course it is necessary to increase pump internal pressure and changing the springs will help a lot , same as fuel suply under pressure.
i have seen a gain of 5cc just by suply the pump with 2bar press.
regards.
inline , hum have a P style, i belive they made some with 16mm elements, for marine generators. for static engines.
dont forguet that static engines have a variable load, konstant speed governor , not suited for driving.
regards.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - MFSuper90 - 01-04-2015
Are weak springs the reason the pumps have a tendency to not return to idle quickly when the fuel is adjusted a lot?
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - [486] - 01-04-2015
(01-03-2015, 06:13 PM)barrote dont forguet that static engines have a variable load, konstant speed governor , not suited for driving.
Really, so long as there's an external adjustment lever with enough travel you can still drive it on the street. Wouldn't work well with an automatic trans, but with a manual it ends up being like driving with the cruise control. Know of a guy on pirate4x4 that makes motorcycles with kubotas, asked him about it and he hasn't had any issue with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbl5sJwYAG4
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - barrote - 01-04-2015
(01-04-2015, 01:10 PM)[486](01-03-2015, 06:13 PM)barrote dont forguet that static engines have a variable load, konstant speed governor , not suited for driving.
Really, so long as there's an external adjustment lever with enough travel you can still drive it on the street. Wouldn't work well with an automatic trans, but with a manual it ends up being like driving with the cruise control. Know of a guy on pirate4x4 that makes motorcycles with kubotas, asked him about it and he hasn't had any issue with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbl5sJwYAG4
MY grandmother used to ride a swipper too
like in the movies!!!The man wants a "SUPER PUMP" not a generator pump, if u know any difference from a static engine and an automotive engine u would know what i was talking about!!! Google it buddy.
the springs force is related with the static fill. once u make use of all the pumping ability off the piston, since it has to fill 4 times in 760º at high RPM it shows static filling issues , ending up in a lower quntity injection.
ex at 1000 pump rpm120cc at 2500 reduces to 110 cc and the quntity btw injectors changes like one at 115 and another at 105.
wich is something bad.
regards
PS: im going to Google "kubota motorcycle" dadadadad
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - Petar - 01-04-2015
(01-04-2015, 01:10 PM)[486](01-03-2015, 06:13 PM)barrote dont forguet that static engines have a variable load, konstant speed governor , not suited for driving.
Really, so long as there's an external adjustment lever with enough travel you can still drive it on the street. Wouldn't work well with an automatic trans, but with a manual it ends up being like driving with the cruise control. Know of a guy on pirate4x4 that makes motorcycles with kubotas, asked him about it and he hasn't had any issue with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbl5sJwYAG4
It feels weird but is drivable on the street. Tractors have those governors and they do just fine. If the governor curves are too steep it will end up surging even with the slightest bumps in the road though
But these governors are a godsend when working in the field...
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - [486] - 01-05-2015
(01-04-2015, 02:27 PM)barrote The man wants a "SUPER PUMP" not a generator pump, if u know any difference from a static engine and an automotive engine u would know what i was talking about!!!
PS: im going to Google "kubota motorcycle" dadadadad
google "diesel motorcycle madness" it's on pirate4x4
On the differences from the two governor types, are you talking about the difference between a constant speed and constant load gov? Because that is exactly what we're saying doesn't matter so much as some people make it out to.
RE: Laser cut Rotary Pumps? - barrote - 01-05-2015
dificult hum , an automotive engine usually has a variable speed gov!!! a tractor usually has a part load gov!!! a generator or a static engine has a Konstant speed governor!!! 3 types at least!!!
an automotive type gov, usually the thr lever increases fuel delivery, until the governed rpm arises and then start to cut fuel!!!
a tractor type gov , the thr lever controls RPM, at same position, engine under load fuel delivery increases , engine with no load rpm maintains related to thr lever and fuel delivery is reduced.
a generator type, once activated is full thr position will give GOVERNED RPM, no mattter what hapens the RPM will not increase or decrease, fuel is added to maintain RPM`S.
a tractor type can be used in a car engine, does not work very well but very few understand the diff.
Today, tractor and generators are CDI/TDI/CRTD what ever they are common rail system , computer does the trick. Before this days it was posible to find IP able to run as the 3 types. dont know of any but i´ve seen once a komatsu engine performing(behaving) like a variable speed with part load compensation.