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+--- Thread: 240d more power (/showthread.php?tid=272)
240d more power - DBogo - 03-09-2009
what can i do to get more power out of this 240d, turn the pump up? intake? how do they sound straight piped?
RE: 240d more power - ForcedInduction - 03-09-2009
Quote:what can i do to get more power out of this 240dGetting it to proper specs.
Quote:turn the pump up?That will just make smoke.
Quote:intake?The factory system is already a free-flowing cold air intake. Since you have an EGR engine you can change the intake over to the 76-80 design that has no butterfly or EGR.
Quote:how do they sound straight piped?Very loud.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFmumRP8PYc
Mercedes' engineers weren't a bunch of dummies, they designed the engine pretty well from the start. They just made a few compromises on the intake manifold to meet emissions limits. Unfortunately you're limited by the natural airflow through the engine and adding a turbo would significantly shorten its lifespan since it wasn't made to handle the added stress like the turbo 300's were. That shouldn't stop you from adding one but in the end it may be easier to swap the engine from a 300D.
RE: 240d more power - Graminal95 - 03-09-2009
Forced is right, the only way your going to get any extra power over stock is to add a turbo. I have been running my 240 with a turbo for more then 23k miles. I have not had any troubles yet, and the extra power is great. My MPG's are up to, as I get just under 34 at every fill up, and that's on winter diesel.
RE: 240d more power - DBogo - 03-09-2009
What are you running for a turbo and what type of manifold do you have intake and exhaust
RE: 240d more power - winmutt - 03-10-2009
Put the pump on the bench and make sure its flowing properly.
RE: 240d more power - kamel - 03-11-2009
Turbo time. Do it!
RE: 240d more power - GREASY_BEAST - 03-11-2009
LOL from the video link forced published:
Quote:"I had to"
on topic:
Basically, just get a 5 cylinder or a 6cylinder engine and put it in there. Making significant power increases out of the 4cyl would involve spending lots and lots of money. However, I have speculated before that with some minor modifications like piston oilers, a different camshaft, turbo pistons, and a myna pump the 4cyl would make a sweet performance engine...
RE: 240d more power - ForcedInduction - 03-11-2009
(03-11-2009, 08:16 AM)GREASY_BEAST However, I have speculated before that with some minor modifications like piston oilers, a different camshaft, turbo pistons, and a myna pump the 4cyl would make a sweet performance engine...
You have speculated correctly but after the cost of parts, machining the block, custom camshaft and custom high flow oil pump, you could have done a basic rebuild on an OM617.95x for as much or cheaper.
RE: 240d more power - Graminal95 - 03-11-2009
For me it was cheap, free turbo (td04hl from a volvo 850R), cheap exhaust manifold (~90 EUR), intake from an early 617 but cut down to fit the 616. Full 300dt exhaust, I had to replace my rusty 240d exhaust and it was cheaper to buy a 300dt exhaust. ALDA from junk yard....ummmm what else. Turbo feed was some brake line I had laying around, just bent up and brazed on a banjo on the end. I had to mod the pan for turbo oil return, but I had the fitting in the shed.
I turned up the IP and added an EGT probe and modified a 300dt tach to read in degrees C. So I can read from 0 - 600+ C on the tach instead of RPM. Its good enough as I don't go over 525 unless the RPM's are to low to make boost and I've been full throttle up a hill for a long time. I also added a 280E economy meter that read from 2 to 12 psi. I have limited boost to 15psi, but only get it up that high at red line.
Here is a link to the photos of the initial install. I have a different intake now and it boosts a lot faster with the new one.
http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/240DTurbo#
Only time will tell how long it lasts. Fingers crossed.
RE: 240d more power - Gross Polluter - 03-11-2009
(03-11-2009, 04:33 PM)Graminal95 http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/240DTurbo#
Awesome.
RE: 240d more power - kamel - 03-12-2009
Ah, words of wisdom from a veteran. Don't be a girlyman, throw a turbo on that bitch!
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-12-2009
The best mod for this engine apart from turbo is modifying it to the MB factory spec of 72BHP, this is the OM616 used in Gelande Wagen G240 as well as Tempo Traveler and few other commercial vehicles from MB. Combined with the slick euro 5 speed, it gives a good pep to the vehicle, the engine revs higher as well so the 5 speed comes in real handy. Best of all this mod doesn't need any drastic engine work, the only thing tweaked is the pump and the rear governor unit of the pump which is replaced. The fuel delivery is increased and so is the timing spill. Also the injection pressure is raised to 120bar.
The turbo needs good amount mods, engine crank needs to be strengthened, exhaust valves are sodium filled, oil pump is chain driven, oil cooler is needed for the oil squirter pistons. Lastly, new pump is needed.
RE: 240d more power - ForcedInduction - 03-12-2009
(03-12-2009, 08:54 AM)Gurkha Lastly, new pump is needed.
Not really. The differences between the turbo and non turbo MW-pump is the ALDA and governor settings. They have the same 5.5mm plungers and the same governor.
RE: 240d more power - Graminal95 - 03-12-2009
STT made kits for 240's and 300's in Europe and many of them have gone 100k's of km without issue.
Quote: engine crank needs to be strengthenedI had not heard of cranks breaking in the 616 or 617's before. I think the crank is fine unless your making huge power or at least more then the 5.5mm elements can provide.
Quote:exhaust valves are sodium filledThe exhaust valves do not have to be sodium filled, many turbo diesel's and turbo gasser's have run very high EGT's without them.
Quote:oil pump is chain drivenThe oil pump seems to have plenty of volume for my car.
Quote:oil cooler is neededAll w123 diesel's in the US got oil cooler's although the 300 is much larger then the 240.
Quote:oil squirter pistonsI don't have piston squirter and they are only needed if your really pushing the engine with high EGT's.
All these things would be nice to have and I consider them an over build as MB did to the diesels, but not necessary.
If I had the money and time I would just get a 300dt and plop that in but I had a 240D with 120k miles and wanted more power. I had an professional race engine builder with 30yr+ experience telling me to "DO ITTTT!!" so I did.
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-13-2009
(03-12-2009, 02:25 PM)ForcedInduction(03-12-2009, 08:54 AM)Gurkha Lastly, new pump is needed.
Not really. The differences between the turbo and non turbo MW-pump is the ALDA and governor settings. They have the same 5.5mm plungers and the same governor.
The pump part number on my OM616 turbo is totally different from the N/A OM616 sold here.
(03-12-2009, 07:20 PM)Graminal95 STT made kits for 240's and 300's in Europe and many of them have gone 100k's of km without issue.
Quote: engine crank needs to be strengthenedI had not heard of cranks breaking in the 616 or 617's before. I think the crank is fine unless your making huge power or at least more then the 5.5mm elements can provide.
Quote:exhaust valves are sodium filledThe exhaust valves do not have to be sodium filled, many turbo diesel's and turbo gasser's have run very high EGT's without them.
Quote:oil pump is chain drivenThe oil pump seems to have plenty of volume for my car.
Quote:oil cooler is neededAll w123 diesel's in the US got oil cooler's although the 300 is much larger then the 240.
Quote:oil squirter pistonsI don't have piston squirter and they are only needed if your really pushing the engine with high EGT's.
All these things would be nice to have and I consider them an over build as MB did to the diesels, but not necessary.
If I had the money and time I would just get a 300dt and plop that in but I had a 240D with 120k miles and wanted more power. I had an professional race engine builder with 30yr+ experience telling me to "DO ITTTT!!" so I did.
MB added nitrided crank to the OM616 turbo as well as 617 turbo pump, exhaust valves and pistons. I have removed the muffer on my 616 turbo to gain better throttle response as well as lower operating temps and EGT.
After 128000 kilometers, I have miniscule oil consumption between changes and my compression pressure is stock. I guess all the extra steps MB took is paying off.
I for one would rather go for the 72BHP mod and keep reliability than go for the bolt on turbo route. If it works out with turbo, more power to you.
RE: 240d more power - ForcedInduction - 03-13-2009
(03-12-2009, 07:20 PM)Graminal95 The exhaust valves do not have to be sodium filled, many turbo diesel's and turbo gasser's have run very high EGT's without them.Just because other engines do it doesn't mean the 61x can.
Quote:The pump part number on my OM616 turbo is totally different from the N/A OM616 sold here.Thats because Mercedes doesn't make your engine, they only licensed the design for production rights.
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-13-2009
(03-13-2009, 03:58 AM)ForcedInduction(03-12-2009, 07:20 PM)Graminal95 The exhaust valves do not have to be sodium filled, many turbo diesel's and turbo gasser's have run very high EGT's without them.Just because other engines do it doesn't mean the 61x can.
Quote:The pump part number on my OM616 turbo is totally different from the N/A OM616 sold here.Thats because Mercedes doesn't make your engine, they only licensed the design for production rights.
FI,
The company that makes the OM616 here also makes the turbo, both are MB design, there is no input from the India company, this company uses MB parts manufactured locally or German. As I said, the pump used in their OM616 differs from the one used on turbo version. The MB OM616 turbo was designed sometimes during 84-85 for commercial app by Diamler Benz Germany.
RE: 240d more power - Graminal95 - 03-13-2009
Gurkha do you have any documents of the 616 turbo? I'm not questioning you, I just want to see what sort of parts MB was using.
Well in a few years when I have a lot more miles on the turbo set up I'll report how the stock 616 held up.
FI on the Na filled valves are you saying I should expect exhaust valve guide wear soon? I'm not saying I know better then MB, I just use what I got and think it will be fine for many many miles.
On the IP note, wouldn't it be funny if MB used 6mm elements on the 616 turbo.
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-13-2009
(03-13-2009, 06:03 AM)Graminal95 Gurkha do you have any documents of the 616 turbo? I'm not questioning you, I just want to see what sort of parts MB was using.
Well in a few years when I have a lot more miles on the turbo set up I'll report how the stock 616 held up.
FI on the Na filled valves are you saying I should expect exhaust valve guide wear soon? I'm not saying I know better then MB, I just use what I got and think it will be fine for many many miles.
On the IP note, wouldn't it be funny if MB used 6mm elements on the 616 turbo.
The company here doesn't bother with documentation and you have to dig it out of MB. I have been at the factory couple of times and I know what parts go into this. The moly coated oil squirter pistons, exhaust valves, oil pump, oil cooler and crank come from Germany and have the MB stamp on them. In fact its nothing else but a 617 turbo minus one cylinder.
RE: 240d more power - ForcedInduction - 03-13-2009
I've disassembled 616 and 617a MW pumps and they are mechanically and functionally identical, just one cylinder different. If you wanted to make a 616 MW into a turbo pump all you would need is an ALDA in place of the ADA, internal governor settings changed and a back plate with a rack damper pin (which is generally useless).
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-13-2009
(03-13-2009, 06:59 AM)ForcedInduction I've disassembled 616 and 617a MW pumps and they are mechanically and functionally identical, just one cylinder different. If you wanted to make a 616 MW into a turbo pump all you would need is an ALDA in place of the ADA, internal governor settings changed and a back plate with a rack damper pin (which is generally useless).
I fully believe you, in this case the part numbers are different, also the older n/a pump was actuated with vacuum from the intake, this pump is directly connected by a rod which goes straight to the acclelerator. Also there is no ALDA in this pump.
RE: 240d more power - ForcedInduction - 03-13-2009
Here is the engine sold in India. It looks little like a 616 except the basic form. The IP is nothing like what was used in the USA. Its similar to the M-pump but with mechanical shutoff instead of vacuum.
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-13-2009
The pic you have is the N/A, the turbo has a different pump than what you see in the pic. The India OM616 has all mechanical pump in case of turbo and non turbo, turbo has no ALDA.
RE: 240d more power - tomnik - 03-13-2009
(03-13-2009, 05:02 AM)Gurkha The company that makes the OM616 here also makes the turbo, both are MB design, there is no input from the India company, this company uses MB parts manufactured locally or German. As I said, the pump used in their OM616 differs from the one used on turbo version. The MB OM616 turbo was designed sometimes during 84-85 for commercial app by Diamler Benz Germany.
Some time ago I contacted the exclusive import company for the TEMPO... here in Germany to get parts or part numbers and technical details.
The guy said that there is nearly no part that is interchangeable with MB 616.
I.e. the length of the complete engine is increased to make the larger oil pump fit. This means that iron bloc, head just everything is different. According his words nothing comes from MB and twice nothing from Germany.
Otherwise he would have sold something to me (for my friend's 240D).
Just give me some MB part numbers to check out whether these are available here in Germany.
Tom
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-13-2009
(03-13-2009, 12:59 PM)tomnik(03-13-2009, 05:02 AM)Gurkha The company that makes the OM616 here also makes the turbo, both are MB design, there is no input from the India company, this company uses MB parts manufactured locally or German. As I said, the pump used in their OM616 differs from the one used on turbo version. The MB OM616 turbo was designed sometimes during 84-85 for commercial app by Diamler Benz Germany.
Some time ago I contacted the exclusive import company for the TEMPO... here in Germany to get parts or part numbers and technical details.
The guy said that there is nearly no part that is interchangeable with MB 616.
I.e. the length of the complete engine is increased to make the larger oil pump fit. This means that iron bloc, head just everything is different. According his words nothing comes from MB and twice nothing from Germany.
Otherwise he would have sold something to me (for my friend's 240D).
Just give me some MB part numbers to check out whether these are available here in Germany.
Tom
The parts are from 617 turbo which includes the squirter MB pistons, the duplex chain driven oil pump which all fit in the OM616 block. The oil cooler is BEHR Germany standard. I shall be posting pics of the engine details including the pump ASAP.
RE: 240d more power - ForcedInduction - 03-13-2009
(03-13-2009, 07:55 AM)Gurkha The pic you have is the N/A
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-13-2009
WOW! good find, thats the turbo allright but in a horrid condition. Then you must have noticed that the pump lacks ALDA. The pump used on the n/a 616 here is different. I will post some pics when I come across one.
RE: 240d more power - tomnik - 03-14-2009
Hi,
I am talking of the basic engine, bloc, crank shaft, head,...
If I get these, the rest is easy.
Post the engine# then I can ask in MB.
Tom
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-14-2009
(03-14-2009, 01:34 AM)tomnik Hi,
I am talking of the basic engine, bloc, crank shaft, head,...
If I get these, the rest is easy.
Post the engine# then I can ask in MB.
Tom
Here is the breakup.........the block and head are made in India by Force and basically they are the same OM616 block that they have been making. The crank is nitrided and is available as a part, the pistons, oil pump are German and the exhaust valve is from EVL India. So bascially all the parts are available on order.
RE: 240d more power - winmutt - 03-14-2009
(03-13-2009, 07:04 AM)ForcedInduction Here is the engine sold in India. It looks little like a 616 except the basic form. The IP is nothing like what was used in the USA. Its similar to the M-pump but with mechanical shutoff instead of vacuum.
That looks like an A pump.
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-16-2009
As promised, here are the pics of the pump and the OM616 turbo engine. As you can notice, there is no ALDA and its an all mechanical affair with a vacuum shut off.
RE: 240d more power - ForcedInduction - 03-16-2009
Looks just like the one I posted a picture of.
RE: 240d more power - Gurkha - 03-16-2009
Yep both are turbo OM616, the one you posted belongs to a guy named RRNSS who runs the site www.force4x4.com He owns a LWB version called Judo.
RE: 240d more power - Ian White - 03-16-2009
around my area mb diesels are a dime a dozen and parts are even cheaper. Dbogo I say go for it. within reason of course
-IAN