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+--- Thread: ceramic coated pistons (/showthread.php?tid=2177)
ceramic coated pistons - ronnie - 01-23-2011
Coated pistons, like ceramic coatings. Hot rodders use them to help protect the pistons from heat, But I have not seen any mention of it for diesels. Yes I know we have oil squirters on the turbo engines, but would coating still be a benefit? to give a little more protection?
I have a 240, so no turbo and was wondering if I do a rebuild sometime in the future to coat the pistons.
I have turned up the pump some. Maybe a turbo in the future, not sure how far I will push it. Part of me says stay conservative, but part of me wants full power like the finns, 245 looked mighty tempting....
RE: ceramic coated pistons - yankneck696 - 01-23-2011
With the coatings, staying conservative with the boost, you'll be fine. If you want crazy power, expect to spend crazy money, or have a brief joyride.
Ed
RE: ceramic coated pistons - ForcedInduction - 01-24-2011
Coating doesn't come up much since few of us even need to open the engine.
Personally, I'd rather spend the money on gapless rings and ARP studs.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - Riverstick - 01-24-2011
Acclaimed heavy diesel engine remanufacturer/tuner Bruce Mallinson of www.pittsburghpower.com has been using ceramic top coated pistons and teflon coated piston skirts in Cummins,Caterpillar & Detroit Diesels for over twenty years with good results. He claims the teflon gives a lower coefficient of friction between the cylinder walls and pistons whilst the ceramic coating helps protect the top of the aluminium pistons from melting when the EGT's get up around the 1200's.
Like you Ronnie,I've often been temted to try it out when rebuilding an engine....the only problem is I never get to take a cylinder head off my Mercedes diesels,because they just keep on going,going,going..............
RE: ceramic coated pistons - ronnie - 01-24-2011
It may well be a while before I need to open mine up. It has about 300,000 miles on it, but still going strong. Just thinking ahead to when it is time. Seems it would be worth doing. Have no idea of cost though. Maybe it would be to pricey, but still wondering if anyone has done it to a Mercedes, especially a 616 or 617.
Gapless rings any idea how much they would help? like x% more compression?
RE: ceramic coated pistons - ConnClark - 01-24-2011
Bang for the buck you would be better off coating the inside of the prechamber than the piston top to get the power benefit. If your worried about melting down a piston then I would say coat the piston top.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - Riverstick - 01-25-2011
As a matter of interest.....who actually carries out this process and how much do they charge?
RE: ceramic coated pistons - ronnie - 01-25-2011
More concerned with protecting the pistons then more power. teflon on the skirt seems like a good idea, I wonder how long this lasts.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - Spaceraver - 01-26-2011
Riverstick. Just had a google..
Swain Tech does coatings from $45 and up pr. piston think maximum price is $62.50 for their hardest coating. This was the first one i found on t'net
http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10971
http://www.engineceramics.com/fullservice.htm
http://www.engineceramics.com/Price_List.pdf
RE: ceramic coated pistons - yankneck696 - 01-26-2011
My 240D engine is still going strong after 4 years with a Ford Probe IHI turbo with 6-8 PSI max. Ran it for quite a while on thinned WVO. With the pump tweaks & hairdrier, there was a noticable butt dyno gain. It was a project when I worked in a salvage yard & put into a 6WD Samurai. If I still had it & had the money, I'd do the oil squirters & upgraded oil pump with ceramic coatings everywhere usable & experiment with bigger turbos, modded pumps & prechamber mods to see what is possible before grenading it. Alas, Jeffro uses it daily as the yard buggy & for a diehard american car junkie, he loved it. It can drag a full sized Chevy truck on it's roof very well.
Ed
RE: ceramic coated pistons - Riverstick - 01-26-2011
(01-25-2011, 06:29 PM)ronnie More concerned with protecting the pistons then more power. teflon on the skirt seems like a good idea, I wonder how long this lasts.
It seems to last the full life of the engine as far as i can see.....not overly expensive either.....Ceramic coating the exhaust manifold and and turbine housing also seems to be another hot rodder's trick to make gases flow more freely and conserve the heat to drive the turbine wheel....although I guess the coating of the internal walls of the combustion chambers,as Conn clark suggested above,would be a good move as well.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - ForcedInduction - 01-27-2011
I'd be willing to coat the prechambers first, that looks like where we would see the best bang:buck.
Coating the pistons makes a bit of sense for DI since the combustion chamber is in the piston, but the prechamber is where we lose the most efficiency.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - DieselSchlepper - 02-01-2011
Coating the piston top helps reflect heat off the piston back into the combustion airstream. So it keeps the heat where you want it - close to the flame front - out of the engine.
I had a beautiful KTM 500 once. Unlike other dirtbikes the bores on KTM never wore out that I could find with good maintenance of course. They had a coating on them called NIKASIL. It seems that coating the piston skirts on a fresh bore would help preserve the original bore clearances, reduce friction and enhance performance.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - George3soccer - 02-02-2011
I do agree with you dieselschlepper. You gotta love the nikasil or have to have it. Been racing ktm's for awhile now. Has a added benefit to it but only a select few shops were able to overhaul the ktm bores. But I'm not sure how this coating would work in a diesel application.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - DieselSchlepper - 02-02-2011
All I meant was that it's a type of coating with good results. I'm sure that there are different ones out there for varied applications.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - Silberpfeil - 02-03-2011
(02-01-2011, 09:09 AM)DieselSchlepper Coating the piston top helps reflect heat off the piston back into the combustion airstream. So it keeps the heat where you want it - close to the flame front - out of the engine.
I had a beautiful KTM 500 once. Unlike other dirtbikes the bores on KTM never wore out that I could find with good maintenance of course. They had a coating on them called NIKASIL. It seems that coating the piston skirts on a fresh bore would help preserve the original bore clearances, reduce friction and enhance performance.
Ferrari I believe has used Nikasil as well.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - lpumb3 - 12-04-2012
swan tech acn do pretty much anything , the heads valves to guides on the port side ports etc . can get pricey, but thermal efficency is the best it will get. Hyundai had teflon skirt/pistons in there little cars . nobody takes car of those things and they will troop on throwing spy hunter smoke screens .
i think there are clearance considerations that need to be made with your machinist, due to coating thickness options etc .
a local bike builder didn't want to work with it on a 801 bb kawi . This was the guy all the local shops used . so......
RE: ceramic coated pistons - Turbo - 12-05-2012
Somebody here tried coating the inside of the pre chamber?
RE: ceramic coated pistons - Greazzer - 12-05-2012
As my engine for the Phoenix Project is being rebuilt, I think I am going to contemplate getting the pistons back from the machine shop and getting them coated. It looks like $45 bucks a piston. The pre-chambers are $25.00 bucks a piece BUT, and BUT, you have to spend some money to take the head apart and put it back together. This option may end up costing around $500-$600 bucks. Pretty pricey mod.
And the benefits are again ?
RE: ceramic coated pistons - MFSuper90 - 12-05-2012
I know in pulling tractors they coat the pistons with titanium to keep them from melting under severe temps. If my memory serves me right its titanium
RE: ceramic coated pistons - OM616 - 12-05-2012
(12-05-2012, 07:27 PM)MFSuper90 I know in pulling tractors they coat the pistons with titanium to keep them from melting under severe temps. If my memory serves me right its titanium
It is common for big diesel engine pistons to be composite, Steel top with a cast aluminum skirt. Titanium is not that good at high temps, but it is better than aluminum. Inconel would be better for the temps, but it is heavy.
RE: ceramic coated pistons - SpecialDelivery - 12-05-2012
what do you guys think of the ceramic bonding metal treatments out there? IXL is one metal treatment not ceramic, been around forever, no data, but I know a 34 year tech who SWEARS BY it...then there's Cerma, www.Cermastore.com is the maker (I know a dealer and he SWEARS by it...and thru whom I heard about the inventor sueing some guy who was buying his product cutting and rebottleing it, using all his research data...stuff claims to coat your motor with silicon carbide) and recently I found www.xado.co.uk/ that was advertised in Road and Track...i'm in the midst of built on my head and new timing chain, going to synthetic and thinking about these....spendy they can be...but are they worth it?
RE: ceramic coated pistons - raysorenson - 12-05-2012
One could argue the ceramic coated piston tops could make the engine more thermodynamically efficient if you were to compare it to an adiabatic (uncooled, as in zero cooling system) diesel with a ceramic combustion chamber. I understand that the adiabatic engines were insulated with around 1/2" of ceramic, which is way, way thicker than any coating you'd get. The adiabatic engines were more efficient, but not more powerful since the combustion chamber was so hot that the incoming air charge was heated quickly enough to expand significantly and reduce oxygen content.
I doubt a typical commercially available ceramic coating just on the piston would make a significant difference in efficiency, but it could make the pistons last longer in an engine that sees punishing conditions.
Minimally informative ceramic diesel info but with lots of pretty pictures.
http://www.sof.or.jp/en/activities/pdf/06_07.pdf
RE: ceramic coated pistons - MFSuper90 - 12-11-2012
(12-05-2012, 07:53 PM)OM616(12-05-2012, 07:27 PM)MFSuper90 I know in pulling tractors they coat the pistons with titanium to keep them from melting under severe temps. If my memory serves me right its titanium
It is common for big diesel engine pistons to be composite, Steel top with a cast aluminum skirt. Titanium is not that good at high temps, but it is better than aluminum. Inconel would be better for the temps, but it is heavy.
Well, i never did believe my memory was very good
RE: ceramic coated pistons - Tmadia - 12-11-2012
Adding a ceramic is like adding insulation in the walls of your house. It just slows down the transfer of heat from combustion through the piston or through the cylinder head. It will indeed help the thermal efficiency of the engine, how that transfer directly to power or mileage is another question.
I used this product: http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/bs-internal-engine-coatings.html
I coated the piston tops and exhaust manifold of my '69 BMW 2002 engine. I really noticed a difference in the under hood temperature as the long tube header used to give off a lot of heat and now it is more like the original cast iron manifold.
It supposedly slows heat transfer around 10%. I should think that doing the piston tops, cylinder head, and exhaust manifold would be very beneficial especially in a turbo engine as more heat will be retained in the exhaust to boost the turbo function.
If I ever feel the need to pull my engine apart I would definitely do this.