So I'm looking at this:



And thinking to myself...why not get rid of that rubber? While it's better than a GM style rag joint for sure I don't doubt that some of that MB vagueness lies here. At 80 bucks to replace, sounds like it's time for an eliminator.

Simple piece of steel to replace the rubber should tighten up the steering a bit, no? Or, looking again, drill the rivets out, bolt one piece to the other (maybe adding some washers to space it out) and I believe we're done here.

I'm going to look at the condition of mine (I'm sure it matches everything but the axles on my car) and see what's up. I don't doubt this is more for 'refinement' than anything else. Done right it certainly couldn't hurt. Should communicate a little better and it's certainly better than shelling out 80 bucks.

Thoughts, barbs, and flaming arrows?

(01-18-2010 12:20 AM)CID Vicious Wrote:  At 80 bucks to replace, sounds like it's time for an eliminator.

$80 to replace a part that usually lasts 20+ years (if fuel and oil is kept off it) doesn't seem like a big problem to me.

I think the cheapest option would be to replace the rubber joint with Polyurethane. That would keep some flex in the line without transmitting vibration like a metal-metal connection would.

And someone makes a polyurethane insert for such a purpose?

I think I'm just going to get one from the yard and try it. Somehow I doubt more feel coming through the wheel on our cars would be a bad thing. W123s have a lot going for them but my much cheaper Civic (and SE-R, and most other driving cars I've had the pleasure of tossing about) trumps it for steering feel and feedback easily. Even my Jetta did.

For like 5 bucks from PAP and maybe another buck for fasteners for something that will never wear out, period, I think it's worth trying. Worst case I put the stock one back in.

(01-18-2010 03:07 AM)CID Vicious Wrote:  And someone makes a polyurethane insert for such a purpose?

No. It would be trivial for one to cut out a disk from a sheet and drill 4 holes.

Eh, we'll work backwards on that. I'll try the metal-metal and if it sucks I'll see about getting some poly. I might just get bored and try it one day, drill the rivets out and see. I can always bolt it back together with the rubber piece again afterwards. (Which is why MB used a big rivet, otherwise you'd be paying 10 bucks for an insert instead of 80 for an 'assembly.')

'Features' like this, and I'm just generalizing, are the kind of 'grandma' features I can do without. Kind of like the spring cutting, all of that jive about how well designed the suspension is, and who am I to go in with a cutting wheel...that mod MAKES my car. Guaranteed though someone over on Benzworld would jump up and tell me how I've ruined my car, my ride now sucks (if you'd never ridden in the car stock you'd never know) and I'm apparently just too stupid to know. Meanwhile it's so good - and I've still only yet done the fronts - I can't believe MB didn't offer such a setup as an option. Even GM offered sport suspension setups for their grocery getters.

The way I see it, if it isn't going to be irreversible, or chew up parts, or chew a hole in my pocket, why not. If it sucks that bad it won't be on long enough to do any 'damage'. This is the reason we DON'T have such parts - either the engineer 'I've got to see the data out to the 23rd decimal point' mentality, or the 'the factory design was so flawless, why?' standpoint. Either that, or someone hasn't looked up the value on a 240D lately because I'm not modding a priceless classic, I'm modding a 700 dollar used car. A 700 dollar used car with acres of parts available in the yards in case something were to go awry.

If the car's design was perfect the idea to improve upon it wouldn't even occur. Another good example is that, without testing it, without TRYING it, people have said that a cone filter/CAI won't improve upon the factory airbox, which I can tell you is false. However I actually got a hair (hare?) up my ass one day and did it just to see. I'll be posting that when my roommate comes back from Mexico with his camera.

/rant

I'll let y'all know what happens.

(01-18-2010 03:38 AM)CID Vicious Wrote:  I can't believe MB didn't offer such a setup as an option. Even GM offered sport suspension setups for their grocery getters.

Thats what AMG, Brabus and Lorinser were for. All of AMG's body, suspension and drivetrain parts were available for the diesel models (including their 5-speed and LSD rear end), if the owner was willing to pay dearly for the privilege.

Quote:people have said that a cone filter/CAI won't improve upon the factory airbox

That strongly depends on what parts are used and how its designed. 99% of the "modified" intakes out there are junk with small tubes and tiny crap filters.

Standard 3" intake tube with a standard K&N wannabe filter. Still makes a big difference. When you're stuck with ~70ish horsepower it's hard to not feel a difference, and the response is far better if not the actual power. However my car's attitude at highway cruise (and I do the same run every week so I know how it feels) would say otherwise. At 80 the engine simply isn't working as hard as it was when it was running the stock airbox, and yes, I had the intake snorkel. I haven't done anything to isolate the filter but it is over where the AC canister was, so I'd say it's getting some of the cold air from that and some engine compartment air, and I wouldn't necessarily see a difference from just 'cold air' as the stock box was a cold air intake itself. The difference is just as noticeable at 3k feet as it is by the beach.

"Thats what AMG, Brabus and Lorinser were for. All of AMG's body, suspension and drivetrain parts were available for the diesel models (including their 5-speed and LSD rear end), if the owner was willing to pay dearly for the privilege."

And that's why BMW came up and took the market share that they did. 22k in early 80's money (30k for a 300D) and the buyer couldn't even check off a box and get a set of sport springs. Aftermarket firms are great and all but that stuff doesn't get financed with the car - probably the only reason Scion sells all of those disco lunchboxes is that if you're a dork who wants 18" wheels on an automatic four banger with a fart pipe, you can finance the wheels and fart pipe with the rest of the car. (Funnily enough I see lots of them running steelies and hubcaps.) MB thought they were impervious (Germany's GM) and time has told it's tale. They thought they could charge uber-bucks for a well-mannered Cadillac and then charge even more just to make it want to dance, and BMW was like, well, why not just offer it that way to begin with? Ding.

Think about it - you could check a box and get sport springs for a velour interior'd, bench seat, column shift Buick, for chrissakes. Cars that no one would ever, ever consider a driving car, still could be ordered with a set of springs that would at least attempt to get down. But Benz didn't see the need, just like VW never thought to race the Beetle, even though plenty of other people did. Damn shame, that, what could have been done with a factory backed tuning effort. Oh well, I'm sure Joe Vittone ain't complaining about it!

If I wasn't paying the repair bills and wanted a German made sports sedan I would be driving a BMW. However I am paying the bills and making my Benz dance like a Bimmer is still an easier option than making a Bimmer reliable like a Benz.

Better make sure thats not MBs solution for a collapsing steering column on the 123 before you replace it with metal. I don't have an idea of the whole column structure, there could be another break away location, but it would be a shame to remove that if it turns out to be the designed weak point for head on collisions.

(01-18-2010 04:17 PM)dropnosky Wrote:  Better make sure thats not MBs solution for a collapsing steering column on the 123 before you replace it with metal. I don't have an idea of the whole column structure, there could be another break away location, but it would be a shame to remove that if it turns out to be the designed weak point for head on collisions.

That was my thought, there is a collapsable section in the middle but I think this adds give as well. Might also make for a smoother driving experience. $80 is ridiculous though. I just got one from a JY.

Dude, when I'm in the canyons, a 'smoother driving experience' is exactly what something like that won't give me. I'm looking for more accurate steering with better feedback. Mercedes Benz is famous for lots of things but it's steering isn't one of them. It's a complaint right on up to the newest examples.

Metal to metal is exactly how you get the feel back. For example, the Civic's rack and pinion in the good years were bolted directly to the subframe - no squishy, isolating bushings. That's why that cookie cutter compact has a better steering feel than our 'hand built over engineered monument to the superiority of the German industrial approach' does.

That component isn't the section that's designed to collapse. Look at it. The two cast pieces would perhaps collapse a whole 1/4 inch with massive amounts of pressure required to do so. It's a torsional shock absorber to isolate the driver from the road, not connect them to it. Ditto with the flex discs, or at least that was the verdict from one of the highest ranking engineers at JPL who was using one to absorb torsional shock in a large antenna's mast.

This is something that might be too 'race' for some but it's hardly dangerous, won't require any big deal fabrication and is 100% reversible. Speaking of 'race', this is one of those things a dedicated track car would benefit from if anyone's planning something like that.

If you're so worried about crash protection ban motorcycles. Going from a Civic to a 240D I'm hardly worried about crashing and I really wasn't even in the Civic. My old Super Beetle would probably have given you nightmares, a truly certifiable death trap. Too poor to fix it I just drove it like that in LA traffic for 8 months. Anyone else would have killed themselves.

It's not that I don't believe in safety features but realize that almost every car made before 80 was a 'death trap' by modern standards, and really 90 might be closer to the truth. So pretty much 100% death traps on the road for DECADES and the way modern drivers act you'd expect the highways to have been drenched in blood from coast to coast in a way that would give a Kali priest a hard on. Much less in Europe or Japan where they weren't just death traps, but tiny ones for the most part, on worse roads.

But no, people could tell that the cars weren't exactly hermetically sealed zones with exceptions to the rules of physics, so they didn't drive down the road in D on a cell phone and looking at an episode of Lost on the dash display. If you want safer roadways make the manufacturers build more manual transmission cars. Having to shift 'm yourself makes it impossible for most drivers NOT to concentrate on what the hell they're doing behind the wheel.

/RANT

Like I said when I do this I'll post the results. No one's holding a gun to anyone's head and saying 'you too must do this'.

Sheesh...

No worries, I don't think anyone was arguing against the idea, just more of an offhand remark about other potential reasons that it could be there.

Remember, I said, "better make sure" and " it would be a shame", not, "you will most certainly die a horrific death by making the slightest change to any part of the car". It was meant as a mild statement.

As I said, Im not sure of the whole column structure, and as winmutt and yourself have stated, the column has other sections that collapse.

Do it, id love the see what the difference in handling is.

Incidentally, just recently worked the motorcycle bug out of my system last year, what a blast. Quit because I nearly was decapitated by a flying boogie board off the top of a minivan for petes sake. Moved up next to the woman and tried to signal her that she was losing her beach party supplies out of her flapping cargo carrier, and received a middle finger for my trouble. Suddenly thought to myself, man, don't want my sister to hear that THIS is how I died.

Man, that's like a scene from Final Destination, only without the more obvious ending ;-).

I do sometimes think, 'you know, for under a grand I could get a Suzuki GS that I'd really like.' I had a GS550M for awhile and while slow for modern standards it was still fun to ride. But yeah, I've heard some gruesome stories, too, and a motorcycle isn't good for much but taking one person around, so cars it is.

It'd be interesting to take a comparable Bimmer and see what's different between the two cars in steering components. Aside from tuning the overall design of the suspension I find to be excellent, can't wait to get the cut 300D rear springs in.

I'm still waiting on my Grant wheel which is adding to my overall crunchiness. I've been enjoying the mod process and I guess a little rain on the parade got me in a rant about an approach I can understand, but I do try to make sure I'm A) actually improving something on the car, and B) that it's not something that I can't return to stock if I don't like. I despise people who just tear into cars and cheesify them, reminds me of Cheech:

"Man, that dude looks like he drove through Pep Boys with a magnet."

So I apologize for appearing like I was tearing into just your two cents, and I'm sometimes the 'ah, are you sure you wanna do that?' guy too. Both approaches can be done right, or wrong.

have you done this yet ?

I was considering the same mod for my W107

I have the kick panel out and went under the dash to look at things.

First of all, there are two of the buggers, one on either side of the firewall.

Two, these are certainly NOT the shock absorber, that would be the big coil spring in the shaft.

Three, mine are so rock hard I wonder if there's any real benefit to swapping mine out. I tried to see if the slop was definitely there but I think my steering box needs a 1/4 turn of more adjustment before I could tell. I'd say that you'll have to poke at them and see how soft they are (or aren't) and judge for yourself. If I wasn't sure it was rubber I'd swear it was plastic, it's so hard.

If I had to replace one I'd certainly try 3 bucks worth of bolts, nuts and washers and see if the rubber disc can simply be eliminated before ponying up 80 bucks.

If I do decide to pull this to experiment I'll let y'all know, unfortunately it's looking more and more like I need a new set of glow plugs.

well the one in my 107 is totally shot..
so I may beat you to it

Yeah, man, I'd at least try the 'bolt' mod before laying down 160 bones on a pair of discs. WTF the flex discs are only 45! The ones that have to live behind the MOTOR!

I think the W107 only has one..(hafta check)
but I think I will give it a shot.

Figure, find a place that has the part, ask if it's returnable (should be). Shouldn't need anything more than some properly sized bolts, nuts, enough washers for spacing if need be, etc, and a drill to drill out the old rivets. I haven't put a micrometer on it or anything but I can't see any reason for them to have created castings that wouldn't work in the manner I'm talking about, it basically should be two copies of the same casting on either side of the disc. Pull the old one out and mod it, if it sucks at least you can just swap in the new one and go 'curses, they got me again!'

But at least you won't be stuck. I'd really hate it if one of my so-called 'good ideas' got someone stranded if they tried it, so I try to troubleshoot it as best I can...of all kinds of Karma I fear the automotive kind the worst!