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Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
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300D50 Offline
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Post: #1
Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
Anyone know the safe upper limit on oil pressure with a 617?

What would blow first if she hit 200+ PSI?
I've heard rumors that it's not good to run too high a PSI on the mains and rods, but never any hard facts as to why, just the standard "it'll blow out seals".
I'm assuming the seals in the IP would be the first thing that would get ornery, but are there any other rubber seals in these engines that might be affected?

I'm asking because when I remade the back of the oil pump to relocate the pickup, I was unable to include the stock pressure relief valve in the new design.
This was in part because the old pickup/rear plate was cast aluminum and used some rather expensive non-standard tooling in its original manufacture.

I'm also having trouble finding an external adjustable regulator in my price range, hence asking what the max the engine can take is. My plan is to possibly run the pump without a regulator, and deal with the possibility of a 200PSI spike at WOT.

Assuming a quasi-linear relation of oil pressure to RPM, 100 PSI at 3K RPM would be ~ 180 PSI at 5400 RPM.

Right now I'm not worried about hoses or filters or the like, those can be dealt with when the time comes.

In case you don't know, engine is a 617.912 that's getting the rotating assembly and valvetrain from a 617.95x engine.

1990 Power Ram 50 V6 /w bad headgasket(s) <-- under the knife, SOHC 24V 6g72 swap

I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
06-21-2011 12:10 AM
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Captain America Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
There is no oil galley that you can add the regulator to?

What does the stocker look like?

1982 300D Turbo ... The Tank ... No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost. Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, Firestone Destination A/T's 225/70R14 In Jne issue of Off Road Mag
2009 Buell 1125CR ... 146 American Made horse power on two wheels
1972 GMC Sprint (El Camino) ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73Q8cSpEbs
1988 Jeep Cherokee XJ ... The offroad master, Detroit Lockers, 4" Lift, 33 x 12.50 BFG Mud Terrains, Trimmed and ready to bash
06-21-2011 03:32 PM
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300D50 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
The stock relief valve is a poppet type built into the pickup foot/rear of the oil pump.

I can tap into the gallery that feeds to the filter with ease, the thing is finding a nice adjustable external regulator.

I suppose I could just adapt the innards of the stock one into an external adjustable configuration.

1990 Power Ram 50 V6 /w bad headgasket(s) <-- under the knife, SOHC 24V 6g72 swap

I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
06-21-2011 04:25 PM
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Captain America Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
There isn't a way to adapt the stock regulator to the filter gallery so that everything stays internal?

1982 300D Turbo ... The Tank ... No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost. Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, Firestone Destination A/T's 225/70R14 In Jne issue of Off Road Mag
2009 Buell 1125CR ... 146 American Made horse power on two wheels
1972 GMC Sprint (El Camino) ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73Q8cSpEbs
1988 Jeep Cherokee XJ ... The offroad master, Detroit Lockers, 4" Lift, 33 x 12.50 BFG Mud Terrains, Trimmed and ready to bash
06-21-2011 04:52 PM
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300D50 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
The stock regulator is part of the cast back of the oil pump, so I'd have to remake it entirely.
It was setup to just bypass the excess oil directly to the inlet of the pump.

The only way I could make it internal would be to remake it and put it back onto the rear of the oil pump, but then I wouldn't be able to adjust it without removing the bottom sump.

The filter gallery exits the block to go to the filter housing anyways, so that's the easiest place to tap into it, especially since I've already completed the new rear pump housing.

I'm not really worried about where to put a relief valve, the main thing I;m looking for is what the effects of oil pressure being higher than stock would be.

I know I'll have a small hit in HP and a bit more strain on the chain/sprockets, but I'm unsure what will happen to the mains, rods, valve-train, etc... Like I said, all I've ever heard is "don't, seals will blow out", but no other reasons...

1990 Power Ram 50 V6 /w bad headgasket(s) <-- under the knife, SOHC 24V 6g72 swap

I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
06-21-2011 05:45 PM
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Biohazard Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
Last time I've heard of a problem from too much oil pressure, was a full race SBF that ran like 140+psi on the circle track. It actually spun a bearing if I remember correctly (about 15 years ago?). Do the front/rear main seals have to deal with full oil pressure or just residual/splash? I know there is pressurized oil to the IP, via external line (plastic), also the timing chain retaining nut/washer opposite of the IP has to seal against oil pressure. Cam doesn't have actual bearings, so thats fine. Rod and main bearings may not like it if it goes too high. Sadly the only way to find out sometimes ends up being expensive. Would the piston squirters handle increased pressure? Head gasket? Thats all I got for now. Hope it works out ok.

82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin: 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, cut springs all around, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, 16" late model wheels, ported/polished cylinder head, custom reground camshaft, electric fan. In the works: constant tinkering, engine swap to 84 Euro 300D

84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. Soon to get the Flyin Pumpkins engine! Big Grin
06-21-2011 06:49 PM
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300D50 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
The squirters are just a small orifice with an anti-bleedback valve, sealed via a machined surface, so they should be good after some 515 or 518 is used.

The front and rear seals deal with splash only, no pressure.

No clue on the head gasket...

The spun bearings has me worried though...

1990 Power Ram 50 V6 /w bad headgasket(s) <-- under the knife, SOHC 24V 6g72 swap

I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
06-21-2011 07:17 PM
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dieselboy Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
Your turbo would blow the seals almost instantly.

I would also venture to say that you would fill the top end with oil being that the oil will flow out faster and in a greater quantity than it can return to the oil pan. Just a theory though.

-Jesse

80 300sd hy35, front mount intercooler, w115 intake, rack limiter removed, Alda removed, full load turned up, boost, ebp, trans, pyro, egr delete, 3.5" exhaust, e-fan, 16x8 rims with, 245/50 tires, lowered, bilstien 5100's, 12" front brakes, 2.65:1 diff.
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(This post was last modified: 06-21-2011 08:00 PM by dieselboy.)
06-21-2011 07:56 PM
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300D50 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
Ah, that is something I was overlooking...

What flow rate in GPM does a KKK need usually? I can find needle valves in the proper range all day long to dial in the flow for the turbo.

The drain-back problem in the top end I didn't think of, but I don't see it being an issue, since the timing chain area in the front allows a full gallon of oil to pour in as fast as the jug will drain it.

Hmm...

1990 Power Ram 50 V6 /w bad headgasket(s) <-- under the knife, SOHC 24V 6g72 swap

I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
06-21-2011 08:16 PM
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Captain America Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
(06-21-2011 07:56 PM)dieselboy Wrote:  Your turbo would blow the seals almost instantly.

How? There is a inline restrictor.
I dont remember the orifice size out of the stock oil fitting for my Garrett but its very small already!

1982 300D Turbo ... The Tank ... No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost. Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, Firestone Destination A/T's 225/70R14 In Jne issue of Off Road Mag
2009 Buell 1125CR ... 146 American Made horse power on two wheels
1972 GMC Sprint (El Camino) ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73Q8cSpEbs
1988 Jeep Cherokee XJ ... The offroad master, Detroit Lockers, 4" Lift, 33 x 12.50 BFG Mud Terrains, Trimmed and ready to bash
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2011 10:45 PM by Captain America.)
06-21-2011 10:43 PM
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led-panzer Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
Quote:How? There is a inline restrictor.

Whose size is probably based on stock oil pressure. Admittedly I'm no expert with these things but even though you have a restricter it still could push too much through with too much pressure.

1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
M-pump, Holset HE341, A/A intercooler, W115 intake, Lowered, 17" AMG rims, Frenched euros, Momo wood steering wheel
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
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06-21-2011 11:02 PM
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yankneck696 Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
OK, time for a full billet oil pump with WIFI microprocessor adjustable pressure & volume...LOL

Ed
06-22-2011 05:08 AM
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Captain America Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
(06-21-2011 11:02 PM)led-panzer Wrote:  
Quote:How? There is a inline restrictor.

Whose size is probably based on stock oil pressure. Admittedly I'm no expert with these things but even though you have a restricter it still could push too much through with too much pressure.

yeah, whats a 100 psi difference lol!

1982 300D Turbo ... The Tank ... No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost. Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, Firestone Destination A/T's 225/70R14 In Jne issue of Off Road Mag
2009 Buell 1125CR ... 146 American Made horse power on two wheels
1972 GMC Sprint (El Camino) ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73Q8cSpEbs
1988 Jeep Cherokee XJ ... The offroad master, Detroit Lockers, 4" Lift, 33 x 12.50 BFG Mud Terrains, Trimmed and ready to bash
06-22-2011 04:02 PM
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300D50 Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Oil pressure... How much would be too much?
(06-22-2011 05:08 AM)yankneck696 Wrote:  OK, time for a full billet oil pump with WIFI microprocessor adjustable pressure & volume...LOL

Ed

Funny you should say that, I was thinking of using a high duty cycle hydraulic valve and a feedback loop from a pressure sensor to control it.

Then I realized if my alternator crapped, I'd be in the same boat anyways...

1990 Power Ram 50 V6 /w bad headgasket(s) <-- under the knife, SOHC 24V 6g72 swap

I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
06-23-2011 08:34 AM
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