This is the flow diagram for mine:

You don't want to feed your air/water intercooler on heater water.
Give it a seperate circuit.

That part is still under development. If the pre-cooler charge is running over 250 F, it should work well since the engine temp is around 190 F.

This is an add-on for later so it will be fully researched before I do any fab work.

If the air-air intercooler is large enough, a second cooler isn't needed.

What would be really special is to use the A/C system to chill a few gallons of water during off-demand periods and use a thermostat to redirect flow to a radiator as the water warms past ambient.
Kenworth is doing something like that (thermal storage) to increase the amount of time the engine can stay off until its needed to keep the bunk cool/warm.

These are some crude pics I took with my phone's camera, I will post updated ones later.

The ultimate goal is to have a daily driver that will give good seat of the pants feeling. I want to make it as simple as possible and as stealthy too, only a little IC hanging out from under the bumper, kind of like cleavage for a car

BTW, my M-pump gets the 7.5 elements next week.

The easiest way would be to put an air filter on the M90 and then plumb it into the turbo and use A/W IC.

Another option would be similar, but use an A/A IC and then plumb into turbo.

Additionally I could plumb the S/C into A/A IC and then directly into manifold bypassing A/W IC or into A/W IC and tie turbo via a wye into the A/W IC intake - Confused yet

Or as like FI's diagram, which was the original concept.

Here are a couple of pics as to what I was talking about. I plan on using 2.5" IC tubing for the connection, but have yet to purchase.


  layout2a.pdf (Size: 17.74 KB / Downloads: 243)

  layout2b.pdf (Size: 13.58 KB / Downloads: 185)

  LAYOUT2c.pdf (Size: 13.76 KB / Downloads: 191)

  layout2d.pdf (Size: 14.15 KB / Downloads: 204)

(01-06-2010 10:43 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  ....

The easiest way would be to put an air filter on the M90 and then plumb it into the turbo and use A/W IC.

Another option would be similar, but use an A/A IC and then plumb into turbo....

Instead of using an A/A, how about using another Air/Water intercooler mounted at the exit on the supercharger similar to the Ford factory undercharger A/W intercoolers found on 1999-2004 Lightnings or Cobras.

   
   

Could save some space and charge air plumbing with this setup.

I got the brackets from the steel supply yesterday and they did a great job, except for one is 1/2" instead of 1/4", not a big deal - just a liitle design change. I need to clean up some edges to get a better fit, they have a slight radius from the plasma arc. Overall I am very happy with the results and right on with the CAD drawings. It ended up costing me $150.00 including materials, the largest piece was 6061-T6 (super charger mounting plate) I should start welding the pieces together on Monday.

I guess I could use an inline A/W IC like Forced used, Not sure I have clearance for it though.

The one you posted just doesn't look feasable for the layout I have with the S/C.

(01-09-2010 07:58 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  ...

I guess I could use an inline A/W IC like Forced used, Not sure I have clearance for it though.

The one you posted just doesn't look feasable for the layout I have with the S/C.

Sorry, I guess I didn't explain my train of thought well enough.
I was posting that pic as an example of how an A/W IC can be packaged in relatively a small area. The intercooler as shown below, is crammed in an intake manifold.
   

I imagine that you can use something similar, but custom made that fits in a box on the outlet of the supercharger and leads to the charge air pipe into the turbo.

I was thinking the piping was getting too lengthy with an A/A IC and with this possible setup, would be cleaner.




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[/u]I might be shooting for the moon here, but I think an A/W IC can be fitted in this box as shown by the arrow.

   



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(01-10-2010 03:22 AM)DeliveryValve Wrote:  [/u]I might be shooting for the moon here, but I think an A/W IC can be fitted in this box as shown by the arrow.





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That is might be the casefor the mercedes blower, I think it is an M60, but the M90 is different it a much smaller outlet assembly - google M90 for Thunderbird S/C and you will see. It would require quite a bit of fabbing to fit one.

Here is a sample that has the OEM fittingd for the T-Bird:

   

(01-10-2010 10:29 AM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  ... but the M90 is different it a much smaller outlet assembly - google M90 for Thunderbird S/C and you will see. It would require quite a bit of fabbing to fit one....

I do recognized that originally. Instead of convoluting this thread with chatter, I sent you an e-mail to further solicit this thought.




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Slowly but surely I am making progress. Getting the belt layout has been a pain, but I have finally have settled on the following. I ended up using a tensioner from a GM 3500 HD and sawpped in a bigger roller and a different config for idler on S/C.

I just need to figure out the plumbing and in a bout a month or so I might be ready to install.

   

   

   
Still need to machine for bracket to fit and for proper alignment, possibly add gusset(s)

A few pics of progress, I need to order some more 3" silcone elbows, a 3" x 2.5" silicone elbow and a 2.5" x 125 degree bend aluminum pipe. Once I have the unit installed I can finish the bypass plumbing, for now it is just a mock up on the intake and no that is NOT the filter I will be using.

3" is quite large, but managable for this design - I am basing it on the VW turbo/sipercharger design sans pulley clutch.

   

   

   

   

   

looking good! take some vids of it running!!! I'm jealous

This is quite a contraption you have going here! Way cool. What are your plans for fuel, or is that still top-secret?

EDIT: Just read that you are getting a 7.5mm M-Pump. This is going to be really cool.

A couple of pics of the progress...just basically waiting on M-pump now...

   
S/C bypass piping

   
Another view of bypass piping

   
Fuel filter bracket

very impressive!
Regarding the elements your set could be in the US next week.

Tom

(02-26-2010 01:06 AM)tomnik Wrote:  very impressive!
Regarding the elements your set could be in the US next week.

Tom

Looking forward to it!

This project is sweet.... I can't wait to see the final result. I might have to drive to socal to see this thing at some point

1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Euro headlights, Ronal R9 15X7 wheels with 205/60r15 Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S tires
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use

(02-27-2010 10:40 AM)capflya Wrote:  This project is sweet.... I can't wait to see the final result. I might have to drive to socal to see this thing at some point

Where are you located?

Here is another pic of progress, nothing set in stone yet...

   

I/C manifold installed and trying to sort out plumbing. I just ordered a 180 degree 3" mandrel bend for the turbo to I/C. It will be a smoother transition than the other design I was running and much easier than piecing together the complex bends to make a short transition.

I'm up in Napa.... It would be cool to see a "super-turbo" in person though

I wish I had the time to fab up stuff like this. Im having a hard time just finding the time to clean and install the engine in my 300D! Gotta get that thing running... the 240d is uh... slow... haha... I'm used to my truck which is... not slow... I drive the 240 with my foot to the floor most of the time... if I did that with my truck I might have some splainin' to do to Mr CHP

Anyways... can't wait to see this thing finished... should be pretty sweet!

1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Euro headlights, Ronal R9 15X7 wheels with 205/60r15 Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S tires
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use

Found a non-EGR manifold that I needed because I wanted to use 4 studs, whereas I had to drill out the bottom studs on my other non-EGR for clearance issues. It will end up for sale along with my T3/T4OE turbo when I am done.

It is amazing what a 24 hour soak in water and citric acid can do to a 30 year old manifold.

   

looking good what turbo are you going to run??? Holset?

(02-28-2010 07:12 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  ..
Here is another pic of progress,


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Yum! Sooooooooo, are you going to leave all that stuff on when you return my engine to me???






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(03-06-2010 12:20 AM)DeliveryValve Wrote:  

(02-28-2010 07:12 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  ..
Here is another pic of progress,


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Yum! Sooooooooo, are you going to leave all that stuff on when you return my engine to me???

   






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(03-06-2010 09:29 AM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  

You know I had to ask!





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My 3" 180 degree elbow was delivered on Friday, just have to polish and make it nice...

   

   

   

   

Looking good!!! Dose your Intake/Intercooler have a support bracket?

(03-07-2010 09:21 PM)willbhere4u Wrote:  Looking good!!! Dose your Intake/Intercooler have a support bracket?

I have these and gussets underneath as well
   

What will the JIC fitting on the side go to?

That system is looking fantastic, I can't wait to see it running.

(03-07-2010 09:59 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  What will the JIC fitting on the side go to?

That system is looking fantastic, I can't wait to see it running.

It used to be for propane, but I never really saw a benefit to it. It actually has a piece of aluminum pressed into it and drilled out to .020".

I am selling it to someone as a kit, Caveat Emptor.

Thanks, I can't wait either!!!

Sick.

Nice and shiny...

   

looks sick I like the supports for the manifold can't wait to see it running!

Hello there. I am not highjacking this thread
I just want to share some pics with you guys.
Basically, i am running a TWINCHRGED setup from 2008 and i did many mistakes and i still have them
Here is my setup in 2008.
Mr. Rudolf_Diesel, you did a GREAT JOB. You are on the right way, but you still have some mistakes. YOU WILL NEED TO CHANGE all these 90 degree silicone COUPLERS between the supercharger outlet and turbocharger inlet and weld all these pipes. Also, you will need to put a ONE WAY VALVE in to that line. Why??? Here is what is going on. When you run boost from your blower in to an turbocharger it is okay,you can use the couplers, because they will expand, BUT, when turbo SPOOLS UP, it starts SUCKING more air than supercharger can supply. The turbocharger will create a HIGH VACUUM, which will suck these couplers and then these sucked couplers will close the air flow . To prevent all these things, you need to install a ONE WAY VALVE, which will open by a vacuum created by a turbocharger.

---

In my first two pictures, you can see the couplers, but i took them off.
Also, i removed my THROTTLE plate from intake manifold and made a custom one in the back of the supercharger.
I am not running a BYPASS valve between the supercharger's inlet and outlet, BUT, i am going to weld one, because with out that valve, i have a compressor serge.
Also, i changed my design and went with a turbo feeded supercharger. It is okay design, but i can not run so much boost. Basically, i am working on my previous one and i am going to put everything back.
Here is my correct setup which i will take out soon

I am not finished yet, there will be a 70mm bypass valve that will open and feed the turbo directly. The 90's are 4 layers of re-inforcement and 5 layers of silicone - they are pretty durable. I will see how it runs before I commit to anything so permanent. Thanks for the pointers... I have some leftover Aluminum tubing if you want to buy some and get rid of the PVC and conduit...

Do you get belt slippage from NOT running an 8 rib belt?

I am going to run about 25 lbs. of boost and have 3 times the fuel of a stock Injection Pump, It should be close to 300 hp.

(03-15-2010 03:32 PM)supercharged3.0 Wrote:  Also, you will need to put a ONE WAY VALVE in to that line. Why??? Here is what is going on. When you run boost from your blower in to an turbocharger it is okay,you can use the couplers, because they will expand, BUT, when turbo SPOOLS UP, it starts SUCKING more air than supercharger can supply. The turbocharger will create a HIGH VACUUM, which will suck these couplers and then these sucked couplers will close the air flow .

Thats why he added a bypass valve, a throttle body from a BMW. The SC will basically be freewheeling with no pressure differential across it.

Quote:To prevent all these things, you need to install a ONE WAY VALVE, which will open by a vacuum created by a turbocharger.

That would be very inefficient and potentially overspeed the turbo. Making it pull a vacuum will drastically increase the pressure ratio to make boost pressure which heats the air, makes the turbo work harder (high exhaust backpressure) and puts a heavy load on the thrust bearing.

What I think he will do to control the bypass is use a pressure (wastegate) actuator set a few psi above the supercharger's output pressure. That will keep the bypass closed and let the supercharger work at full output until the turbo spools up to do the rest of the work efficiently.

If graphed (as on a dyno) his boost curve at the manifold would look something like this.
   

Quote:Also, i removed my THROTTLE plate from intake manifold and made a custom one in the back of the supercharger.

So the entire system (SC/turbo/intercooler/manifold) is under throttled vacuum? Doesn't that cause really funky part-throttle performance?

(03-15-2010 05:02 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  I have some leftover Aluminum tubing if you want to buy some and get rid of the PVC and conduit...

Do you get belt slippage from NOT running an 8 rib belt?

I am going to run about 25 lbs. of boost and have 3 times the fuel of a stock Injection Pump, It should be close to 300 hp.

I got some 2.5 aluminum pipes, but i might will need more. I will let you know about that.
I do not have any belt slippage. IT is just super perfect.
With 25 psi, you will be over than 300.
Where are you in Cali? I am in North Hollywood 91606

(03-15-2010 07:05 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  [quote='supercharged3.0' pid='11441' dateline='1268685163']
So the entire system (SC/turbo/intercooler/manifold) is under throttled vacuum? Doesn't that cause really funky part-throttle performance?

No, the throttle performance is BETTER. The only problem i have is the loooong running pipes. When i start the engine, it REVS until 2000-2500 and gets back to 1100.

(03-15-2010 08:45 PM)supercharged3.0 Wrote:  When i start the engine, it REVS until 2000-2500 and gets back to 1100.

Thats what I mean, the lag caused by the huge volume increase.

Quote:Where are you in Cali? I am in North Hollywood 91606

SGV

(03-15-2010 08:50 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  

(03-15-2010 08:45 PM)supercharged3.0 Wrote:  When i start the engine, it REVS until 2000-2500 and gets back to 1100.

Thats what I mean, the lag caused by the huge volume increase.

Yes, because i have so much air in the system. It revs up, sucks the air from the system and engine gets vacuum. I really do not like it!!!

---

(03-15-2010 08:52 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  

Quote:Where are you in Cali? I am in North Hollywood 91606

SGV

You are in 30 minutes drive from me.
If you are going to have a time or would you like to meet, we can meet. I can show you my setup and you can show me yours.

WOW! That is an amazing set-up you have going there RD! I can't wait to see it up and running. Of course, I'm sure you can't wait to see it up and running either... Great fab work, too. Thanks for keeping me jealous.

where is your THROTTLE BODY located, before Supercharger??

diesels dont have throttle bodies?

You have to realize that this is a DIESEL and you have a gasser for starters - what works for you will not necessarily apply to me. I for instance could run 35 pounds of boost and probably more and your engine would be a block with melted pistons.

Secondly, diesels do not have a throttle. There is no vacuum on a diesel per say other than a small amount at the compressor inlet - aside from that vacuum is created via the vacuum pump.

Thirdly, the throttle body I will be using is simply to bypass the intake of the SC and directly feed the turbocharger. It will be mount in a parallel manner to the SC and open when boost and throttle position dictate

The bypass on the SC is to allow it to essentially idle without a load and not be a parasitic horsepower draw until it is needed.

Hmm.. that is interesting. I really do not know much about diesel engines.....that's why i asked ))))

(03-05-2010 10:18 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  Found a non-EGR manifold that I needed because I wanted to use 4 studs, whereas I had to drill out the bottom studs on my other non-EGR for clearance issues. It will end up for sale along with my T3/T4OE turbo when I am done.

It is amazing what a 24 hour soak in water and citric acid can do to a 30 year old manifold.

This may be an "ignorant question" but I'll ask... if you took apart a turbo could you do this to the housing to clean it up?

1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Euro headlights, Ronal R9 15X7 wheels with 205/60r15 Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S tires
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use

(03-24-2010 07:09 PM)capflya Wrote:  

(03-05-2010 10:18 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  Found a non-EGR manifold that I needed because I wanted to use 4 studs, whereas I had to drill out the bottom studs on my other non-EGR for clearance issues. It will end up for sale along with my T3/T4OE turbo when I am done.

It is amazing what a 24 hour soak in water and citric acid can do to a 30 year old manifold.

This may be an "ignorant question" but I'll ask... if you took apart a turbo could you do this to the housing to clean it up?

It should work just fine. I bought some powdered citric acid from a local supply house and mixed about 6 cups to about 3 gallons of water and let it soak overnight. It cleanded other metal parts too, but completely took away the zinc and yellow chromate coating.

Should you coat the manifold once its all clean. Or leaving it alone will do just fine.

Great project by the way....keep it up.

(03-24-2010 09:54 PM)George3soccer Wrote:  Should you coat the manifold once its all clean. Or leaving it alone will do just fine.

Great project by the way....keep it up.

I sprayed it with a rust inhibitor after I was done cleaning it. I plan on either jet-coating or spray it like the last project with an axhaust coating from http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-perfo...ings2.html I have used them and been very happy with the results.