The M-Pump is finally installed and running. It had a bit of an idle issue at first, but a 3/4CCW turn of the fine idle screw fixed that. (For future reference, the screw is 6mm with a 13mm nut.)

In the first picture you can see my solution to the bowden cable issue. The reason I chose that method is I need the EGR ramps for my plans on controlling the Holset VGT turbo. If it weren't for that I would have just attached the bowden directly to the main throttle lever. The M has a STOP lever that works directly on the fuel rack; No more silly slider rods, slip guides or jungle of rods on the valvecover.

I also like to keep my vacuum system as simple as possible. Just the transmission modulator, vent (blue hose) and shutoff.
   
   

Once the pump decided to play nice, I found its low-end torque to be fantastic! Everyone says the MW is "technically superior" to the M, but after driving around for a bit I have to disagree. This one runs a bit more quiet, power delivery is smoother, EGTs are almost 150*f lower on the highway and it has real balls off the line even without a VNT (or any kind of boost enrichment).

I'll be running it at the stock 88hp for a little while before turning it up.

The lack of sleep is affecting me, I forgot to make a video! I'll be sure to get something up soon.

(07-01-2009 03:39 AM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  This one runs a bit more quiet, power delivery is smoother, EGTs are almost 150*f lower on the highway and it has real balls off the line

Why do you suppose that is? Difference in governor design?

(07-01-2009 07:46 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote:  Why do you suppose that is? Difference in governor design?

Probably just tuning... the OM60x series of engine has a crossflow head, which likely gives it better flow numbers in the lower RPM range.

The EGT difference is VERY interesting!!! I bet the cam has a more aggressive injection rate.

(07-01-2009 09:12 AM)Tymbrymi Wrote:  Probably just tuning... the OM60x series of engine has a crossflow head, which likely gives it better flow numbers in the lower RPM range.

The EGT difference is VERY interesting!!! I bet the cam has a more aggressive injection rate.

This is a 617, though. What would cause more aggressive fueling in the lower range? I agree, the EGT difference piqued my interest as well. That's what makes me think that it is more than just a simple rack tuning difference.

(07-01-2009 10:15 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote:  This is a 617, though. What would cause more aggressive fueling in the lower range? I agree, the EGT difference piqued my interest as well. That's what makes me think that it is more than just a simple rack tuning difference.

I don't know where Forced got the pump from... if he got it from a 60x that would explain the difference since he hasn't adjusted the pump yet. If it came off of a euro 617, the only thing I can think of is the European emissions regulations allowed for a more aggressive tuning down low.

As a WAG, since Europe isn't as worried about NOx as we are, they can have higher combustion pressures/heat. So they can inject more fuel faster than we can here... I think a lot of cause for high EGTs is fuel continuing to burn during the exhaust stroke, and if the fuel is injected earlier, the fuel has had a chance to completely burn in the cylinder and transfer its energy into motion instead of simply extra heat. I could be totally wrong on that though.

This is the stock elements right? And this IP came from a 617.91x? Did you change any other internal settings?

(07-01-2009 11:58 AM)Tymbrymi Wrote:  I don't know where Forced got the pump from

Its off a euro 83? 300D 4-speed. The only thing off an OM60x is the transmission vacuum valve.

(07-01-2009 12:57 PM)winmutt Wrote:  This is the stock elements right? And this IP came from a 617.91x? Did you change any other internal settings?

Yes, stock 5.5mm elements and the only settings touched is a 2* timing advance and a 3/4CCW turn of the idle screw.

Alright. So we know the M-Pump runs 150°F cooler at highway speeds (on Forced's engine), and is more aggressive in the bottom end. So what could cause this?

Maybe steeper cam lobes could cause the lower EGTs, but is it a different helix cut that causes the more aggressive low end?

(07-01-2009 03:46 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  ...the only settings touched is a 2* timing advance and a 3/4CCW turn of the idle screw.

If the timing advance was performed at the same time as the M-Pump install we can't make a ANY conclusions!! If you did do it at the same time, even though it is a major PITA, would you adjust the timing to what it was with the MW pump? This way we have a true apples to apples comparison with only ONE variable involved.

(07-01-2009 05:33 PM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote:  Maybe steeper cam lobes could cause the lower EGTs, but is it a different helix cut that causes the more aggressive low end?

I think helix cut, cam profile, and governor tuning could all attribute to a beefier low end. All a beefier low end means is more fuel is being injected...

(07-01-2009 06:17 PM)Tymbrymi Wrote:  If the timing advance was performed at the same time as the M-Pump install we can't make a ANY conclusions!!

The same was done to the MW right after I got the car and found the IP loose.

Quote:All a beefier low end means is more fuel is being injected...

How quickly its injected is a factor too.

(07-01-2009 06:17 PM)Tymbrymi Wrote:  All a beefier low end means is more fuel is being injected...

Yes, but WHY????

(07-01-2009 07:27 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  How quickly its injected is a factor too.

How exactly does this relationship work?

(07-01-2009 08:13 PM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote:  How exactly does this relationship work?

The quicker all the fuel is injected the longer it has to expand as it burns.

My personal experience with my euro 300D was similar. It was not that noticeable slower over a stock turbo 617.

(07-01-2009 09:27 PM)winmutt Wrote:  It was not that noticeable slower over a stock turbo 617.

It sure feels like it, but it loses that above 3000rpm. Humm, I was thinking of turning it up this weekend but I may see about doing a dyno first.

From a fuel mileage point of view, did you take any notes on your mileage prior to the install and after?

Just one, I only have 530 miles on it right now. I'll double check when I get home but it was about 25.xmpg with the 3.07. I didn't get through a tank with the 3.46 before swapping the IP.

Ah, I forgot to say I swapped on the relief valve with the 27mm spring from the MW as well.

Here was the economy reading I got.
5/21/09
odo- 490
trip-253
gallons- 9.142
cost- $20.83
mpg- 27.67

Time to adjust the pump!

Good job F.I., what do they get for a M pump?

(07-12-2009 07:32 PM)Motorhead Wrote:  Good job F.I., what do they get for a M pump?

I paid about $50 for mine from a junkyard 300D. Used; reasonable is $100-$150 and $200 is high unless it comes with all the linkages and injection lines.

There is an M-pump on eBay. Its been up since April with no change in price. In March I offered $125, but he turned it down.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...0275337685


Okay, here are my adjustments so far.
7-01 Idle, Fine- 3/4 CCW
7-12 Idle, Coarse- 1-3/4 CCW
7-12 Full Load- 1-1/2 CCW
7-12 Max RPM- 1/2 CW
7-12 Torque Control- 3/4 CW

Power is much better. Performance is a little quicker than the MW pump run (right).
       
15hp isn't bad for two hours and turning a few screws! The bowden cable wasn't set right for that run, it shifted to 3rd and 4th at 3300rpm so the actual numbers should be a little better.

Tomorrow or Tuesday I will turn up the boost and adjust the full load and torque capsule further.

Quote:There is an M-pump on eBay. Its been up since April with no change in price. In March I offered $125, but he turned it down.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...em&item=22

Not anymore, I offered $150.00 and it automatically gave me the win, suweet...I can play with it when I get home from vacation.

(07-13-2009 10:33 AM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  

Quote:There is an M-pump on eBay. Its been up since April with no change in price. In March I offered $125, but he turned it down.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...em&item=22

Not anymore, I offered $150.00 and it automatically gave me the win, suweet...I can play with it when I get home from vacation.

Dam I was going to do the buy it now, good for you.

Thanks...I was looking for the pics on FI M-pump install, what happened to them?

(07-13-2009 10:45 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  Thanks...I was looking for the pics on FI M-pump install, what happened to them?

Probably a problem with photobucket, I uploaded to them when we were having the attachment issue. I changed it over to our system so they should appear now.

I adjusted the full load another 1 turn, the torque capsule 1/4 turn (it didn't want to go in any further) and the wastegate 4 turns. Power is even better! Unfortunately I forgot my iPhone here at home so I'll have to go out and do a run later.

The throttle is much more sensitive now that its got a lot more working range. Unfortunately it means the transmission shifts too soft now. The vacuum valve is set as far as it will go. I can't figure out which cover is the modulator to turn it up. Brian (KTA-Cummins) has turned his up, he would know. Somebody should contact him and get him on this forum!

Now we are getting somewhere!
       

Great news!

For the tranny, why not increasing the hydraulic pressure with the T in the modulator?

(How did you record your runs? Would be nice to use the same as a standard to compare directly)

Tom

(07-14-2009 08:59 AM)tomnik Wrote:  For the tranny, why not increasing the hydraulic pressure with the T in the modulator?

I'll be doing that when I turn up the pump again, possibly today. I have to, the shifts are much too soft and borderline flaring after the last adjustment. Fresh ATF may be part of it as well.

I don't want to just pull the vacuum hose. Thats what broke the flex disk on my wagon a few years ago.

Quote:(How did you record your runs? Would be nice to use the same as a standard to compare directly)

I use the same stretch of road near my home. Not many people travel it at 2am.
   

When I'm done turning up the pump and have a VNT/VGT installed I'll do an official dyno.

O.K.

Not a standard for me.
I will be back in a few weeks with new progress and hopefully some data.

Tom

Got my pump from Brownie yesterday. I popped off the covers and cleaned it out, everything looks good! Normal wear on cam, which in reality is none. I still need to get the trans valve, but what else do I need? Will my MW pump linkage work?

FI, can you label the screws you adjusted with the Bosch nomenclature, i.e. 2e Spring Retainer (torque control) - I am trying to figure out which idle screw is which. Also, do you think I should mirror your adjustments before I install pump or being that you are so high above sea level they may not work for me?

Thanks!!!

(07-24-2009 12:20 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  FI, can you label the screws you adjusted with the Bosch nomenclature, i.e. 2e Spring Retainer (torque control) - I am trying to figure out which idle screw is which. Also, do you think I should mirror your adjustments before I install pump or being that you are so high above sea level they may not work for me?

Its all here: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/ip-f...t-189.html

I'd install the pump first just to be sure it even works. The filter housing doesn't have to come off for adjustment so its a minor operation.

I am going to start the installation of my M-pump this week. I have not pulled off the IP before, but what I have read I need to set the timing on the crank to 24 BTDC - then I can remove the pump. There is a missing tooth on the pump shaft, where does that mark need to be in order for the pump to be in time? I think it is pretty straight forward, but just want to cover all bases.

I have all the gaskets ready and going to do my fuel filter mod at the same time too. I know FI said the injection lines are different, but can I still use the MW lines or do I need to get different or make my own?

Its not good to bend the lines that far, but they can be bent to work until you find the right set.

Attached is the manual to R&R the pump. Installation is the same for the M but removal of the M can be done with the oil filter housing in place. Remember to plug the oil line on the engine!

It's Alive! It took me about an hour to R&R the MW and install the M-Pump. I set the motor to 24 deg BTDC and removed the pump. I set the M-pump's missing tooth to match the mark on the pump as well as verfied the position of the #1 lobe on the pump, they do indeed match. The M-pump is about 3" shorter than the MW so there is plenty of room to install and make adjustments later. I tweaked the lines to fit - a little here a little there.

I was able to use the existing linkage with a few adjustments to the arms.

I used FI's last published settings and just had to adjust the idle. It does sound different than the MW, a better sound to it maybe a little quieter.

It seems to have some more low end and I can hear the turbo singing more than before while banging through the gears

I took it on the freeway, climbed some hills - it runs good, but probably some room for improvement. I set the timing as close to 24 as I could, but I don't have the correct socket to remove the delivery valve and do the drip method, but it is good for now. I will set the correct timing and let you know how it changes. Right now it is not as good as MW-pump on top end, but I think that will change when I set timing and tweak the setting a bit.

I was floored doing 90 mph, 4100 RPM, 825 EGT, 15 pounds of boost at approximately 300 ft. above sea level and about 80 degrees, wanted more but CHP was ahead and I had to slow down.

Does the M pump not have the port on the side for setting timing?

It has the port for the lock tool.

Rudolf_Diesel, if you need the 30-spline socket I can let you borrow mine.

(08-11-2009 10:22 AM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  It has the port for the lock tool.

If it has the port for the lock tool then I can make one. I was thinking of making a timing tool with a proximity sensor to read the tang on the governor.

Quote: Rudolf_Diesel, if you need the 30-spline socket I can let you borrow mine.

I appreciate that, I will PM you my address.

You can just look into the port no?

(08-11-2009 08:36 PM)winmutt Wrote:  You can just look into the port no?

I was looking at the port on the bench and I don't recall seeing the tang as defined as the newer pumps on the OM60x. It may be there, but I will have to look again.

---

I adjusted the transmission valve today, it has never shifted better!

I also adjusted the throttle linkage, it wasn't hitting the stop at WOT. I also adjusted the go pedal.



It is running freakin awesome! It is a tiny bit slow off the line, but the boost comes in quick and it wants to move. I have to modify the hose for the turbo to IC pipe, it blew off twice today. The boost gauge was peaking at 17 lbs.

The EGT's are really good, no more than 850 - however when the hose blew off I was climbing a hill and it hit 1050. I still had plenty of power to climb the hill though.

Cruising doen the freeway I was doing 70 MPH, 625 EGT, 5 PSI boost, and 3200 RPM. When I flloor it the boost comes on quick to 15 PSI and it wants to go. I need to find an open stretch and see how fast she will go ( I have a 120 MPH speedo)

Can't leave well enough alone...

I found a W124 300D and pulled the injectors. They had a rubber band on them stating they were rebuilt for MB. I pulled the tag off and they originally came off of a VW/Audi, I don't think they are AAx injectors though. The only exterior physical difference I can see is the entrance hole is about 3mm and offset from the center. The injectors I pulled out had a trilobial insert in the hole. I pop tested each one and they all popped at 135 and the spray pattern looked good. I pop tested my old injectors, they popped at 120, but had a good spray pattern.

Seems to have a little more bottom and way more top end, boost comes on quick when flooring it on the freeway and accelleration is good.

What does this have to do with the pump? Well the idle increased to 1000. I adjusted it to 750, but when I put it in gear it would drop to 550 and sound like it would want to stall. Do I need to go in and adjust the coarse idle screw?

One other thing, I was going to set the timing using the drip tube after swapping injectors. I pulled the delivery valve housing ( thanks to FI loaning me his socket!) and removed the spring and valve then reinstalled the housing. All of the lines were off the pump and installed the drip tube. I could not get any fuel flow from the tube no matter how many times I rotated the engine. I am going to try again today, Fuel is was squirting out of the other fuel valves without removing springs or other components. It is pumping fuel to number one, when the engine is running I cracked number one line and it stumbled - tightened it and ran smooth.

Am I missing something?

(08-16-2009 11:01 AM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  What does this have to do with the pump? Well the idle increased to 1000. I adjusted it to 750, but when I put it in gear it would drop to 550 and sound like it would want to stall. Do I need to go in and adjust the coarse idle screw?

It wouldn't hurt. The fine adjustment screw is only supposed to have about 1 turn of range before some documents warn of spring damage.

Quote:I could not get any fuel flow from the tube no matter how many times I rotated the engine. I am going to try again today, Fuel is was squirting out of the other fuel valves without removing springs or other components. It is pumping fuel to number one, when the engine is running I cracked number one line and it stumbled - tightened it and ran smooth.

Remember to pump the primer and have the linkage at WOT when drip testing. I thought mine had the same problem but I had to swivel the pump back and forth once to get #1's port uncovered and fuel moving.

I pulled the pump yesterday and made a couple of adjustments, much easier to pull pump than to fight with back cover - I can pull it in about 15 min.

I adjusted the full load 1 more turn and the torque capsule 1/2 turn, there is more adjustment left on the torque capsule, but for now I will leave it alone.

It is running really nice, It leaves the line like a gasser and boost comes on real quick. EGT's seem to be in check - I have not even been close to 1150 and believe me I have tried. I will figure out how to post some video so you can see the boost gauge as I am cruising down the freeway.

I did some injector work also. I pulled the OM603.xxx injectors and swapped the 265 nozzles into a matched set of injectors I pulled from a OM617.xxx. They all pop tested at 135 with a good spray pattern. The original injectors in my motor were rebuilt - some German, some French, but all had German 240 nozzles (They pop tested all over the place lowest 125, highest 157).

If I cannot get the idle figured out I just may put the 240 nozzles back in.

I ended up swaping the 265's for the 240's. It idles much smoother now and no nailing, top end is slightly less, but i will do more test driving this weekend to determine.

I still have an issue with the idle though - it will idle at 750, but when you put it in gear it drops to 500. I have the idle for P set at 1000 so when I put it in gear it drops to 750.

Adjustments from previous post: I adjusted the full load 1 more turn than the initial adjustment and the coarse idle 1 more as well, I also adjusted the Torque capsule 1/2 turn -It is just getting to be a PITA.

I am thinking of making a billet cover and adding some external screws to make adjustments while running - still in the development stage.

Any ideas? Tweak the coarse idle - Torque capsule?

I don't have any idle problem with mine. Its at 750 in P and 650 in D.

Try adjusting the idle stabilizer screw (2K).

(08-21-2009 10:47 AM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  I don't have any idle problem with mine. Its at 750 in P and 650 in D.

Try adjusting the idle stabilizer screw (2K).

I found some more detailed info on pump...

http://www.w124performance.com/service/W....1-010.pdf

I explains quite a bit on pp. 10-13

I was looking at that screw and that was going to be my next step.

Thanks for the help.

Can somebody post a picture of the 617 m-pump delivery valve? I want to compare it with the 606a pump DV but I don't have the socket back yet.

(08-31-2009 10:04 AM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  Can somebody post a picture of the 617 m-pump delivery valve? I want to compare it with the 606a pump DV but I don't have the socket back yet.

I am mailing it today, sorry about that, but had a lot going on friday of last week. I will send it priority.

(08-21-2009 09:50 AM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  I still have an issue with the idle though - it will idle at 750, but when you put it in gear it drops to 500. I have the idle for P set at 1000 so when I put it in gear it drops to 750.

Adjustments from previous post: I adjusted the full load 1 more turn than the initial adjustment and the coarse idle 1 more as well, I also adjusted the Torque capsule 1/2 turn -It is just getting to be a PITA.

I just adjusted the screws 1.5 turns and now have the same problem. It will slowly build up to 800-900rpm and drop to 500rpm when put in gear.

Did you try anything with the stabilizer screw (2K)?

Besides the idle issue and shifts flaring (too much modulator vacuum from the smaller throttle movement needed to make the same power), this last adjustment made a hell of a difference. I'm almost tempted call it good after the idle issue is solved.

I need more boost than 16psi and to add an intercooler, too much haze and EGTs hit 1250* quicker than I'd like.

(08-31-2009 08:31 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  

(08-21-2009 09:50 AM)Rudolf_Diesel Wrote:  I still have an issue with the idle though - it will idle at 750, but when you put it in gear it drops to 500. I have the idle for P set at 1000 so when I put it in gear it drops to 750.

Adjustments from previous post: I adjusted the full load 1 more turn than the initial adjustment and the coarse idle 1 more as well, I also adjusted the Torque capsule 1/2 turn -It is just getting to be a PITA.

I just adjusted the screws 1.5 turns and now have the same problem. It will slowly build up to 800-900rpm and drop to 500rpm when put in gear.

Did you try anything with the stabilizer screw (2K)?

I have not adjusted anything and the idle seems to have settled down - it now idles in park as well as in gear at 750 RPM.

---

(08-31-2009 09:26 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  Besides the idle issue and shifts flaring (too much modulator vacuum from the smaller throttle movement needed to make the same power), this last adjustment made a hell of a difference. I'm almost tempted call it good after the idle issue is solved.

I need more boost than 16psi and to add an intercooler, too much haze and EGTs hit 1250* quicker than I'd like.

I can hit 20 PSI real quick and have been at 23 a couple of times. The EGT's are not an issue for me. I like the way the 265's ran and I might put hem back in, but I will lap the mating surfaces before assembling the injectors. I have been at 1150 pushing really hard and it will not even get close to 1250.

Humm, so maybe just a "break in" issue for the pump to work in a previously unused/unworn range?

Quote:I can hit 20 PSI real quick and have been at 23 a couple of times.

You're also almost at sea level. At my elevation I can't go much past 15psi without surge.