Hi,
a little progress in this project.
The prototype sample barrel just arrived for acceptance.

Tom

   

(09-21-2009 08:27 AM)tomnik Wrote:  Hi,
a little progress in this project.
The prototype sample barrel just arrived for acceptance.

Tom

Are these 7.5 mm elements for M pumps?

I've asked around here and the 5 cyl M pumps can be found for about 37.5 Euros ...

Money, money, money ...

Yes.

M pumps for the 602 turbo???

Tom

Looks good Tom

7.5mm should flow tremendously more than the 5.5mm elements in most M pumps we encounter!

(09-21-2009 01:46 PM)tomnik Wrote:  Yes.

M pumps for the 602 turbo???

Tom

(09-21-2009 01:46 PM)tomnik Wrote:  Yes.

M pumps for the 602 turbo???

Tom

Yes Tomnik, 602 turbo IPs.

Deni, why don't you find out how much shipping to the states would be, say zipcode 30316. I might be interested in facilitating some purchases.

Would these fit an M pump from an OM605, and how about shipping to the UK, Newcastle??

Cheers

Bryn

(09-23-2009 01:00 PM)brynton Wrote:  Would these fit an M pump from an OM605, and how about shipping to the UK, Newcastle??

Hi Bryn,

Yes these fit all the Ms. Do you have s.o. who can do the swap and adjustment? Otherwise send me the complete IP after I have discussed the cost with my bench guy over here. Shipping UK-Germany is not a big thing but the Pound is weak compared to the EUR.

Tom

The M75 Floyd elements arrived yesterday.
20 pieces, 6 of them are on the way to the bench guy for the first swap.
I'll provide bench numbers as soon as possible after comparing them with the calculation.

   

Tom

Nice! My 7mm's are still waiting for installation... Maybe skip them and jump right to the 7.5's

7,5 is sweet..

Why are you going for this instead of the "regular" 7mm? Have you experienced 7mm being insufficient?

If you have a thread or external link about this subject, it is greatly appreaciated.

I am also thinking of 7, but if 7,5 is better..

looking forward to see how this develops..

(11-13-2009 04:39 PM)E300TSC Wrote:  Nice! My 7mm's are still waiting for installation... Maybe skip them and jump right to the 7.5's

not a bad idea! Peter is over here Nov, 30 for 2 weeks.

Tom

OK, send me a PM and tell me how much you want for 6...

For anyone considering fitting the M75 Floyd elements here in the US, we now have an option, in lieu of sending our pumps to Finland, et al. I am working together with tomnik, and contracting out a shop to get the pumps on the bench for the critical element balancing, as well as governor tuning.

In addition, we will also offer the MW65 Holly element swap for the OM617 engine and it's respective MW injection pump.

This will be a complete swap of the existing elements for either the M or MW injection pumps, for the 7.5mm or 6.5mm elements respectively, ready to reinstall on your car.

Please let me know if anyone is interested in this service.

(11-19-2009 08:58 PM)DervTuning Wrote:  For anyone considering fitting the M75 Floyd elements here in the US, we now have an option, in lieu of sending our pumps to Finland, et al. I am working together with tomnik, and contracting out a shop to get the pumps on the bench for the critical element balancing, as well as governor tuning.

In addition, we will also offer the MW65 Holly element swap for the OM617 engine and it's respective MW injection pump.

This will be a complete swap of the existing elements for either the M or MW injection pumps, for the 7.5mm or 6.5mm elements respectively, ready to reinstall on your car.

Please let me know if anyone is interested in this service.

Hey Derv,

Are you set up to balance the electronic M series pumps?

I would be interested in the elements and tuned pump just wondering on price range and turn around time.

E300TSC, if you have a chance, could you please let me know of the bosch pump number? I have this same pump, but not with me at the moment.
For my application, I will install the 603 pump, but the 606 will be installed with a Getrag 5MT. I can understand why you need to continue to use the 606 pump in your E300, with rack voltage manipulation.

(11-20-2009 06:46 AM)E300TSC Wrote:  

(11-19-2009 08:58 PM)DervTuning Wrote:  For anyone considering fitting the M75 Floyd elements here in the US, we now have an option, in lieu of sending our pumps to Finland, et al. I am working together with tomnik, and contracting out a shop to get the pumps on the bench for the critical element balancing, as well as governor tuning.

In addition, we will also offer the MW65 Holly element swap for the OM617 engine and it's respective MW injection pump.

This will be a complete swap of the existing elements for either the M or MW injection pumps, for the 7.5mm or 6.5mm elements respectively, ready to reinstall on your car.

Please let me know if anyone is interested in this service.

Hey Derv,

Are you set up to balance the electronic M series pumps?

I would be interested in the MW65 elements for the 617a MW pump, what is the cost ?

Thanks

(11-21-2009 12:51 AM)kmaser Wrote:  I would be interested in the MW65 elements for the 617a MW pump, what is the cost ?

Thanks

ditto

Yes sir would deffinitly be interested in this turnaround.

Tom, are there any larger elements made for the MW pump?

Udates are due

(11-19-2009 08:58 PM)DervTuning Wrote:  For anyone considering fitting the M75 Floyd elements here in the US, we now have an option, in lieu of sending our pumps to Finland, et al. I am working together with tomnik, and contracting out a shop to get the pumps on the bench for the critical element balancing, as well as governor tuning.

In addition, we will also offer the MW65 Holly element swap for the OM617 engine and it's respective MW injection pump.

This will be a complete swap of the existing elements for either the M or MW injection pumps, for the 7.5mm or 6.5mm elements respectively, ready to reinstall on your car.

Please let me know if anyone is interested in this service.

Definitely interested!!!

First bench data:

the very first and fast set up of the M75 Floyd elements showed a perfect idle quantity (in this case 9.5 ccm/1000) without measurable differences between the cylinders and resulting in +- one ccm/1000 difference in the 80 ccm/1000 range where I want this IP adjusted to.
Max. quantity (within the operation range of the IP) is about 140-150 ccm/1000.
This set up was without any fine adjustment, just a fast job and shows the (expected) quality of the elements.

With the production I am still in the acceptance series, so the available quantity is limited right now.
Against my plan to give some elements with my colleague this weekend he told me that he has already over load. But I try to have the parcel in the US before X-mas.
(besides Evan) Who will be in for one single set of 5 or 6 M75 elements shipped next week to Virginia for the cost of 60 EUR/piece + 15 EUR (shared shipping cost) to be paid to my colleague in Virginia.
It would make sense that the one who takes this set install it some when soon in an already modified car and report the results and not for a far future project just to have it.
The manufacturer is waiting for my o.k. to start the production run (200 pieces) and I have to pay in advance!

Tom

Edit: No more M75 Floyd elements available (out of the pre series). Let's wait for the results of the lab rats. Tom

Tom, I'll work with your associates in MD to get the elements installed as soon as they're ready. For now, I'll just run stock induction and asess drivability.

I just have to learn how to keep my foot off the pedal!

I will also volunteer to handle any US shipping of other parts so Peter doesn't have to deal with it.

What is the specific advantage of the 7.5mm Floyd elements, compared with the 7.0mm Myna elements? Is it strictly more fuel, or are there other benefits? Also, what is the approximate cost per element, shipped to the USA?

I'm working on a 603 pump with 6mm elements installed, which should be good for ~200hp or so (maybe a bit more). I wonder what kind of power would be generated with the 7.5mm elements.

(12-24-2009 10:12 AM)gsxr Wrote:  What is the specific advantage of the 7.5mm Floyd elements, compared with the 7.0mm Myna elements? Is it strictly more fuel, or are there other benefits? Also, what is the approximate cost per element, shipped to the USA?

I'm working on a 603 pump with 6mm elements installed, which should be good for ~200hp or so (maybe a bit more). I wonder what kind of power would be generated with the 7.5mm elements.

2 main things:

all after market 7 mm elements I tried failed in quality. I also have original Bosch 7 mm elements but they are different in the fuel port diameter.
The result is that the IP can not be adjusted according to Bosch specs, the tolerances especially in balancing are far far away from acceptable (at least for me) but also geometrical issues resulting in disorientation of the barrel and the plunger will snap out of the control rod "shoe".
The average price of those are about 40-45 EUR/piece.

these elements are made for a different IP with different cam profile.
The results of that is that the end of injection is too late when you want to achieve quantities in the 100 ccm/1000 range. The Floyd elements are calculated for this and on top for a governor setting that allows the governor to operate in its range.
This is btw. what causes delay for recalculation and prove on the bench.
The price for them is 60 EUR/piece + 30 EUR shipping to the US, which could be shared, + money transfer fees (this is not sure for now how I will handle this for the future).

Right now one test set is installed here and we still fight with best settings. Two sets are going to the US for the same purpose.
When everything is o.k. the 200 piece production run will start.

Merry X-mas,

Tom

Tom, that is very intriguing. Will these elements work in a stock 1987 OM603 injection pump, or does the pump require modifications (different cam, modified governor, etc)? Or is a different 603 pump required as a donor? This is the tag from the pump I have now.

If the "lab rats" turn up good results, I would be very interested in a set of these, as long as I can get a US shop to properly set up the pump on a Bosch calibration bench. Thanks again for all the info!

I will check the instruction for your IP but it will work on any 60x turbo-IP.
David (Dervtuning) will care about the swap and set up in the US and you can be sure that it will be done properly. We currently work on custom instruction for the Floyd elements set up.

Tom

The M75 Floyd elements were designed specifically for the M pumps that Mercedes uses, and will work directly with the OM603 pump. The governor settings do need to be adjusted accordingly, but all the hardware (save for the element swap) will work.

We will take care of the swap and all the necessary adjustments whilst the pump is on the bench. This includes the element to element delivery adjustments, as well as the governor settings. You would simply send in your pump, and after a short turnaround time, reinstall the pump and you are good to go.

Upcoming results will be posted

(12-24-2009 04:00 PM)gsxr Wrote:  Tom, that is very intriguing. Will these elements work in a stock 1987 OM603 injection pump, or does the pump require modifications (different cam, modified governor, etc)? Or is a different 603 pump required as a donor? This is the tag from the pump I have now.

If the "lab rats" turn up good results, I would be very interested in a set of these, as long as I can get a US shop to properly set up the pump on a Bosch calibration bench. Thanks again for all the info!

(11-25-2009 12:10 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote:  

(11-21-2009 12:51 AM)kmaser Wrote:  I would be interested in the MW65 elements for the 617a MW pump, what is the cost ?

Thanks

ditto

Me three.

Derv so what your saying is that i could send you the pump and you would install them and then set everything up right then send it back to me for install, and i would not have to mess with any thing?

Either you tell what max. quantity you want to have adjusted or you might have to turn the full load screw to adapt quantity to your individual engine set up.

Tom

(12-31-2009 03:21 PM)Jtn190D Wrote:  Derv so what your saying is that i could send you the pump and you would install them and then set everything up right then send it back to me for install, and i would not have to mess with any thing?

Does any one know how much it will cost?

(01-01-2010 11:04 AM)Jtn190D Wrote:  Does any one know how much it will cost?

I need 60 EUR/piece + shipping (30 EUR or shared)

For swap and set up cost David will inform you.

Tom

Ok thanks. Will i need to upgrade turbo? And should i install a intercooler if i did these mods to get full power out of the extra fuel?

the more air you bring the more you can adjust fuel (fuel=power).
The range of adjustment will also allow to run them in a stock engine.

Tom

Will there be any power improvements running stock turbo?

Can these elements be used in an M pump on the 617a?

(01-01-2010 06:55 PM)Jtn190D Wrote:  Will there be any power improvements running stock turbo?

not tested yet. All other mods came first then we ran out of fuel.
But in theory regarding the shorter spray time (end of delivery much earlier) there must be some advantages in efficiency and power.
In my opinion only the Floyd mod leaving other stuff stock is too expensive but as a first step possible and at a certain grade necessary as soon as air supply is sufficient.


The Floyd elements will fit the M IP, not MW.

Tom

Jtn190D, yes, in combination with Tom's answer, that is correct. It is a straightforward process

Indeed, depending on the fuel quantity desired, the pump can be set up accordingly to your needs.

(01-01-2010 09:31 AM)tomnik Wrote:  Either you tell what max. quantity you want to have adjusted or you might have to turn the full load screw to adapt quantity to your individual engine set up.

Tom

(12-31-2009 03:21 PM)Jtn190D Wrote:  Derv so what your saying is that i could send you the pump and you would install them and then set everything up right then send it back to me for install, and i would not have to mess with any thing?

How much of a power increase would the MW65 holly elements be capable of supporting ? and also do you know when they will be available over here.

thanks

Kurtis

(11-20-2009 12:48 PM)DervTuning Wrote:  E300TSC, if you have a chance, could you please let me know of the bosch pump number?

To answer the question back in post #17... the electronic OM606 pump used in the 606.912 non-turbo (96-97 E300) is Bosch # 0-400-196-002, this pump has 5.5mm elements.

The pump used in the 606.962 turbo engine (98-99 E300 Turbo) is Bosch # 0-400-196-003, this pump has 6.0mm elements.

Detailed photos of both of these pumps (including some pics of the electronic "governor" ass'y) are on my website at this link.

(01-04-2010 12:26 PM)gsxr Wrote:  To answer the question back in post #17... the electronic OM606 pump used in the 606.912 non-turbo (96-97 E300) is Bosch # 0-400-196-002, this pump has 5.5mm elements.

The pump used in the 606.962 turbo engine (98-99 E300 Turbo) is Bosch # 0-400-196-003, this pump has 6.0mm elements.

Detailed photos of both of these pumps (including some pics of the electronic "governor" ass'y) are on my website at this link.

Get yours swapped yet?

(01-04-2010 03:38 PM)winmutt Wrote:  Get yours swapped yet?

Nope. I am still waiting for the 6mm pump to be completed, then shipped to me, so I can install it in my car. Hopefully it will show up within the next couple of months. I am very curious what kind of power it will make. I've got baseline test data from 0-100mph with a stock pump and maxed-out stock pump, along with dyno runs on the maxed-out pump, so I should be able to tell exactly what the improvement is with the 6mm pump.

So what is the price tag to buy and have you guys setup a pump with the m75 elements?

[edited for ridiculous use of cap lock]

Hi,

one element is 60 EUR.
The final cost for the swap and adjustments will be more clear after the first IP is done.

Tom

(01-21-2010 07:37 PM)squirrelmaster Wrote:  So what is the price tag to buy and have you guys setup a pump with the m75 elements?

[edited for ridiculous use of cap lock]

(01-05-2010 11:27 AM)gsxr Wrote:  

(01-04-2010 03:38 PM)winmutt Wrote:  Get yours swapped yet?

I've got baseline test data from 0-100mph with a stock pump and maxed-out stock pump, along with dyno runs on the maxed-out pump, so I should be able to tell exactly what the improvement is with the 6mm pump.

How much of an improvement did you see between stock and a maxed-out stock pump on the 0-100 acceleration? I have yet to touch mine.. other things to attend to as of yet.. still I am curious how much 25 or so HP makes

(01-23-2010 08:24 PM)Jdmills Wrote:  How much of an improvement did you see between stock and a maxed-out stock pump on the 0-100 acceleration? I have yet to touch mine.. other things to attend to as of yet.. still I am curious how much 25 or so HP makes

I was able to compare a freshly rebuilt & calibrated pump, and then a different pump that was maxed out. The difference was significant... the stock pump was about 38-40 seconds from 0-100mph, while the maxed out pump dropped that to about 30 seconds. Interestingly, the 0-60 times were not as radically different... 10.7 stock, 9.2 maxed out.

The difference really depends on how much fuel your pump is currently delivering, and if any previous owner or shop had tweaked the full load (or ALDA) settings. Based on my experiements, and Casey's, if you're fairly sure the pump is virgin, turn 2f and 2b a total of 1.5 turns, and re-adjust all external linkages. (That is, assuming you have an OM60x engine - can't help you with an OM61x).

If/when I eventually get that pump built with the 6mm elements, I'm hoping for a 0-100 time of 25 seconds, as compared to the current best of ~30 seconds. That time (25 sec) would equal the performance of my old 1986 300E. I'd like it to get closer to 20 but I'm pretty sure that would require larger elements than the 6.0's, especially with the low-BTU crap fuel we get here now.

Has there been any progress with the MW65 elements ?

Kurtis