(Originally this post for for an HY35 install, but as you read you will see why I changed to using an HX35)

I am planning on installing my HY35 and W140 Euro Manifold onto my stock 1987 300TDT. I would like to install this and get some numbers; at least do some runs of my iPhone's "Dynolicious" program which has accurately assessed my car at 145HP and clocks my 0-60. Better than nothing! Then I would like to add a 3" straight pipe and run numbers again. All of which will be documented on this site.

This is my first time doing something like this. I will be doing it at a friends shop most likely and he knows quite a bit about turbos and is a good mechanic. I also have access to a Fab shop and people that can weld, cut, plasma table, shear, brake, etc.

Parts list (feel free to add):

- Gasket for Exhaust Manifold to Head
- Gasket for Turbo to Manifold
- Bolts and Nuts for Manifold and Turbo (Do I need these?)

Questions:

- Since the Euro manifold put the Turbo on top, will I need to re-clock the turbo for ports to aim proper direction?

- How will I need to accommodate for an oil line? My guess is the the stock ones will not line up.

- What is the best way to connect the 4" downpipe to my existing exhaust?

- On the intake size, where can I find the tubing I need to go from Air Filter to Intake Port?

- Eventually I will put in an Intercooler, but in the meantime, how do I get the Crossover pipe to connect to HY35?

See signature for car profile:

You will not gain any power without modifying fuel injection. HY35 is not a good turbo for OM603, since it has way too small turbine housing.

Connecting parts is done by welding mostly, since in these projects you will have to custom-make just about everything.

According to this post, it should do well with what I want:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/turb...-1587.html
I am wanting acceptable power without having to hit high RPMS. If you have some more insight, I would love to hear it, just post it in that thread so I can keep this one clean for the actual install. Thanks!

(08-10-2010 12:55 PM)muuris Wrote:  since it has way too small turbine housing.

Its small for absolute power but its essential if the vehicle is expected to perform reasonably as a daily driver. 2psi at 2200rpm for an HX35 is unacceptably slow unless you like shifting above 3000rpm all the time.

Didn't see power goals, but for around 250hp I'd pick a smaller turbo and for more, the exhaust housing is too small. Just my opinion.

(08-11-2010 01:21 PM)muuris Wrote:  Didn't see power goals, but for around 250hp I'd pick a smaller turbo and for more, the exhaust housing is too small. Just my opinion.

Not only small turbinehousing but that "closed" turbine wheel.

What turbo would you recommend than? For a daily driver but with some decent track performance as well.
I need some education! I paid $200 for a 68k mile HY35 with no shaft play so i can recoup the money and get something different...I just need to know what to get!

(08-11-2010 02:10 PM)jonbobshinigin Wrote:  What turbo would you recommend than? For a daily driver but with some decent track performance as well.

What is your "decent track performance"? For me it would be 1000kg and 400hp. 1800kg and 180hp is enough for others.

250-275 hp, I don't want to damage my engine or have to upgrade engine components. I want to get to 60 in under 11 seconds and get better fuel efficiency, buy have additional power when I need it.

Bump...Muuris and Jeemu...What would you recommend I use for a turbo instead of HY35? Also...I keep reading that stock internals in an om603 are good for 300HP, while other places say 400HP. What do you think?

(08-16-2010 01:01 AM)jonbobshinigin Wrote:  Bump...Muuris and Jeemu...What would you recommend I use for a turbo instead of HY35? Also...I keep reading that stock internals in an om603 are good for 300HP, while other places say 400HP. What do you think?

3-350hp HX35 and over that HX40. Original turbo engine can handle 400hp.
If you want play safe, change om606 rods in it.

My friend has 535hp om603 and there is 606 rods.

You can also change om606 mls head gasket. Use old gasked and drill couple holes in it.

(08-16-2010 01:01 AM)jonbobshinigin Wrote:  I keep reading that stock internals in an om603 are good for 300HP, while other places say 400HP.

Thats because horsepower is just a math number. What actually matters is how much torque at what RPM they can handle.

300hp at 3000rpm is far more stress on the engine than 300hp at 6000rpm.

I would say that having a HX35 with a 12 cm housing would be your best fit. The HY35 has to small of a exhaust housing,they were used on automatic Dodge trucks to help with spool and limit the max hp due to a week transmission. I have the HX35 and it builds boost real smooth and it doesn't lag on my setup. The 603 and 606 are made to rev to 5500 for a reason so you have a good operating range and they won't last real long with lots of torque below 2000 the rod bearings just won't hold up.

Sounds like the HX35 will be just fine if the goal is 275hp max?

Well...I was under the impression that the HY35 would spool up faster making for a more reasonable daily driver. In what way does a small exhaust housing effect my setup?

Higher exhaust backpressure at top rpms. At normal driving/highway speeds it will only spool up quicker.

Are the HY35 and HX35 so different that I should sell the Hy and get an HX now...or should I install the HY now and document results and then sell and get an HX and document results? Or will none of it matter until I get more fuel?

Whats the deal with the W140 euro manifold? No EGR? Any other benefits?

It apparently flows better for one. But the biggest reason is is does not have the trap ox setup and it allows for a larger turbo. I just happened to get lucky and score a Euro manifold!
Here is a pic:

Yes, its a traditional manifold the eliminates the bypass pipe.

damn I want one lol! that looks nice!

Any ideas how the stock 3.5L (603.971) turbo will work, which I think is a plain T3 in 0.55 trim (compared to 0.50 on the 3.0L)? My theory is that it should be ok for 200-220hp with the "Euro" manifold. I'm planning to try this with a custom 6.0mm pump before going crazy with Holsets and Floyds. I've already got the turbo and manifold (with EGR port, while will probably get converted to an EGT port).

I have heard that that setup is much more efficient and spools quicker...but I "hear" a lot of things.

PS: Dave, you have helped me out tons with all of your documented work. You are the w124performance.com correct? = Huge fan!

There is no map for the 55 trim. But comparing the 50 and 60 maps it looks like a very good match for the 603 at stock-ish power levels.

jonbobshinigin, yup, that's my "website"... someday I dream of creating some HTML to go along with the photo collection. I've got a bunch of text articles collected from over the years that still isn't uploaded. I need a 9-day week, or 30 hours per day, or both!

Forced, by "stock-ish", do you mean ~200hp as compared to 300-400? For grins, let's say the turbo is too small for the fuel delivered / power produced... what would happen besides black smoke from lack of airflow? Maybe high EGT's from excess backpressure? I just want to avoid grenading anything.

(08-17-2010 07:00 PM)gsxr Wrote:  Forced, by "stock-ish", do you mean ~200hp as compared to 300-400?

Yes, but the stock pump can only do about 180hp.

Quote:For grins, let's say the turbo is too small for the fuel delivered / power produced... what would happen besides black smoke from lack of airflow?

Overspeeding the turbo, very hot airflow and high backpressure.

(08-17-2010 07:04 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  Yes, but the stock pump can only do about 180hp.

Correct. And that's 180hp only with good high-BTU diesel, which is not available in many areas (most of CA, OR, NV, WA, and now ID at least around Boise, has the low-BTU enviro-friendly junk which is down about 10% on power and MPG). On the lousy #2, it's more like 170hp tops. I'm working on getting a pump built with 6.0mm Bosch elements that should be good for fueling at least 200hp, even with poor fuel, which is why I was asking.

Quote:Overspeeding the turbo, very hot airflow and high backpressure.

That's kinda what I suspected. I'll be able to see the IAT's so that will give me some idea... I've already seen IAT's around 250°-300°F on warm days with a totally stock config at extended WOT.

Use the turbo calculator to plot out the flow/PR on a map.

http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/t...utyCycle=0

(08-16-2010 03:19 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  Higher exhaust backpressure at top rpms. At normal driving/highway speeds it will only spool up quicker.

HY35 make boost even normal highway drive, if you hit some gas back pressure rice faster than boost.

I did not understand that perfectly Jeemu. How daily drivable is an HX35 be?

What I think Jeemu is trying to say stay away from the HY the exhaust housing is to small. I can vouch with my setup that you go any smaller on the exhaust housing on a 606 or 603 you will choke it of above 3000 rpm. A 12 cm housing will be the smallest you want to go. There is a guy in Finland that has a 603 myna pump and 12cm hx35 and his results are dyno run wheel 316hp power and 550Nm Approximately TORQ. His user name is Atte L he said it has lots of low end left.

(08-18-2010 03:01 PM)95e300dez Wrote:  What I think Jeemu is trying to say stay away from the HY the exhaust housing is to small.

Yes that is what i try to say. Thanks

Eweryone can use turbo he likes, but if you look only dyno graphs, look also is graph an id or idi engine and also rpm.

(08-18-2010 02:05 PM)jeemu Wrote:  HY35 make boost even normal highway drive

Thats a good thing. Diesels need some boost while cruising to increase efficiency (lowering EGTs).

(08-18-2010 04:04 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  

(08-18-2010 02:05 PM)jeemu Wrote:  HY35 make boost even normal highway drive

Thats a good thing. Diesels need some boost while cruising to increase efficiency (lowering EGTs).

I make between 2-5 lbs at highway speeds with the hx35 12 cm housing. I make 5 to 7 between 70 and 90 cruising. If you want it to spool real fast use the split scroll housing with a boost operated flapper on the flange between the turbo and the header. That setup will yield instant boost and good top end.

(08-18-2010 04:04 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  

(08-18-2010 02:05 PM)jeemu Wrote:  HY35 make boost even normal highway drive

Thats a good thing. Diesels need some boost while cruising to increase efficiency (lowering EGTs).

Yes it is if it can make boost more and quick than back pressure.
This turbo cant do that. That is not suitable on 605/6.

Ewerybody has freedom to try turbo what they want. That is only my opinion and i have test that turbo on my engine.

(08-18-2010 04:53 PM)jeemu Wrote:  This turbo cant do that. That is not suitable on 605/6.

It works pretty well on an engine with more than twice yours displacement.

(08-18-2010 05:03 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  

(08-18-2010 04:53 PM)jeemu Wrote:  This turbo cant do that. That is not suitable on 605/6.

It works pretty well on an engine with more than twice yours displacement.

How much it take rpm? How much it has bak pressure?

Over 750cfm of airflow.

(08-18-2010 05:28 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote:  Over 750cfm of airflow.

You not answer my guestion.

Forced: If 3ltr engine rpm is 5500rpm and 6ltr is rew 2750rpm.
Both make 350hv. What size turbos those need?

Well...looks like I am gonna sell the HY35 with only 68k on it and no shaft play. I got it for $200. I guess I will keep my eyes open for an HX35 instead. There is a one that was rebuilt 3000 miles ago for $250, but I am not sure of all the details yet, or if it is still available.

If you already have it, why don´t you try it

I suppose that is a good point. Actually, I mentioned that but no one responded to it. I would be fine with that, especially since it won't make a difference until Derv gets the 603 pump tuning completed. Anyone know how different the plumbing will be between the HY35 vs the HX35?
I still need to go ahead and plumb up an intercooler. Ideally I will put it behind front bumper or behind grill...any idea? Yes, I have seen Casey's under bumper setup and I liked it. I want it to be clean looking.

(08-18-2010 05:30 PM)jeemu Wrote:  You not answer my guestion.

I did. Comparing two completely different engines RPMs is meaningless. What matters is the airflow requirements for each to make the same power.

A 5.9L 24V Cummins flows more air at its stock rating of 3200rpm and 21psi (754cfm) than your 605 does at 6500rpm and 35psi (748cfm).

Quote:Anyone know how different the plumbing will be between the HY35 vs the HX35?

They are the same other than the exhaust outlet.

http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/turbo_faq.htm

Forced is lacking practical experience on this subject.

Cummins is DI and Merc is not. I'm pretty sure Cummins is designed from the beginning to have high backpressure all the time for emission control reasons. It also has a way better fuel injection and timing systems than these. The system has been built to operate that way.

OM605/6 don't like high backpressure. As the timing device is from the stone age, we are limited to use a certain base timing which can't be altered to work optimally with driving conditions, other than rpm. Now this is ok with stock pumps where fueling amounts won't alter that much, but it's a different story when getting high hp.

My engine dies totally every time EMP goes about 15psi higher than boost. It "works" but feels like blowing into a bottle. Whether it was 5psi/20psi or 30psi/45psi. The same thing with 2 different turbos and 2 different injection pumps. The other reason why high backpressure is unwanted are the stock exhaust valve retaining springs.

I thought the cummins B series was DI?

(08-19-2010 10:03 AM)HughF_UK Wrote:  I thought the cummins B series was DI?

Whoops, wrote it the wrong way! Of course Cummins is DI and OM60x is not.

(08-19-2010 09:04 AM)muuris Wrote:  Forced is lacking practical experience on this subject.

Wrong.

Quote:Cummins is DI and Merc is not.

That makes little difference. All engines are air pumps. An IDI will take about 20% more air for the same power for thermal, friction and VE losses.

Quote:It also has a way better fuel injection and timing systems than these.

Wrong again. Only the common rail models have dynamic control of timing. The P7100 and VP44 injection systems are no better or worse than what we use and they're very popular in the 1000+hp group.

Is Forced test that Holset HY35 on a 606 engine how it works?
I dont care what turbo people use, but i dont recomend turbo what i know it wont work that fine. There is a lot more better turbos.

Would the HY35 work ok on a 603 or 606 up to about 275hp? It sounds like it's too small for really big power, but it might be just fine at lower power levels, no?

GSXR I would say if you already had the HY just try it and see if it is enough. I know the Dodge trucks that they come on are some low hp trucks. I think you would still like the hx better. We need to meet up so you can see how my car runs.