(11-05-2009 11:33 AM)dropnosky Wrote:  and B, compare the performance of each one against the others.

That's prob. the greatest benefit of that idea...

Almost back to square one on the 190 case. Went and picked it up this morning, and this time paid 30 dollars instead of 40! Usual excellent quality on the welds. Need to chase the drain plug and bolt pattern threads again, and need to flatten the top and grind down the welds on the inside, and then we should be back at stock.

Now just waiting for the machine shops for my plates


  190case190cornerwelded1.jpg (Size: 72.22 KB / Downloads: 916)

  190case190cornerwelded2.jpg (Size: 68.82 KB / Downloads: 916)

  190case190cornerwelded3.jpg (Size: 70.92 KB / Downloads: 919)

(11-05-2009 09:28 AM)dropnosky Wrote:  Next I was thinking about the input shaft problem that was still unresolved in method 1. Heres a comparison pic-


Initially, my plan was just to deal with it after putting the transmission together with some kind of spacer. They both use the exact same pilot bearing, but the 240 shaft is a lot longer, and another large factor is that the 240 clutch is a lot cheaper than the 190.
The best of both worlds would be if I could somehow swap the pertinent parts of the shafts. That way, every other clutch/drivetrain part could still be standard 240 stuff. I don't want to make it so any maintenance requires an extensive parts reference list.
With this in mind, I went to yet another machine shop recommended by the welder to see what can be done. The machinist tells me that we can try and swap the ends of the shafts. The procedure would be to cut both shafts, drill down the long axis and thread the pieces back together to weld it. The risk here is that the strength of the shaft is now completely based on the strength of the weld.
Also, how we proceed depends on the construction of the shaft itself. It is hardened steel on the outside, and possibly all the way through. If its hardened all the way through, then we have to consider different options on how to keep it properly straight.

He tells me that he has done this specifically about a dozen times with good success, but on low RPM, high torque farm equipment using the welder I am also using. Im not too worried about the strength if thats the case.
He is worried about the balance at high RPM, so I may look into resolving that later if this works. I have him cutting the 240 input shaft as an experiment to see how we can proceed.

The method your machinist outlined will work just fine. My brother married the output shaft of a TH350 trans to the input shaft for the transfer case on a TOYOTA LandCruiser. He had swapped in a SB Chevy and the TH350 auto trans. He turned down the diameter of one shaft and bored a press-fit hole in the other shaft. He pressed them together & TIG welded them while it was turning very slowly in the lathe. He let it turn until it was cool. He thrashed on it pretty hard for several years without any problems. He sold it and never heard any further from the new owner.

This is a great idea, Im going to call the machinist and see if we can't incorporate a press fit as well.

Were those shafts hardened on the outside? Did he grind through the tool steel?

(11-12-2009 10:18 AM)dropnosky Wrote:  This is a great idea, Im going to call the machinist and see if we can't incorporate a press fit as well.

Were those shafts hardened on the outside? Did he grind through the tool steel?

He said that one was quite hard but he was able to turn it down using a ceramic insert on the tool bar. The chips were coming off bright red. The shaft that he turned the counter bore in was just surface hardened and wasn't as difficult to cut. He made the fit so tight that he had to put one piece in the freezer overnight and then heated the other before pressing them together in a hydraulic press. After pressing them together he chucked it up in the lathe and turned it very slowly while he welded the two pieces together. He let it continue to turn in the lathe after welding until it was cool. He did this to minimize any run-out. I wouldn't be suprised if the shaft you're working is surface hardened and not through hardened. I would think that through hardening would cause the shaft to be more brittle than if it were surface hardened and more likely to break under torsional load.

Thats also what I think, it would not make sense to harden the whole shaft, gotta be skin deep.

I spoke to the machinist who said that he had not gotten around to it, but was kind of cagey about the whole press fit idea cost wise and said he would call me back. Ive thought of another way to reinforce it on the outside with weld anyway, so I might also look at that option.

He promises something next week, same as the other machinist.

Input shaft is ready for welding. Ill drop it off tomorrow. I think Ive found the machine shop Id like to use as well, guy has been very responsive and fast. I did not go with a press fit because the machinist was pretty fearful of damaging the hardened synchro gearing on the end of the shaft which is also press fit on the end. He made a good argument against press fitting without breaking the shaft down further.

It turned out as we expected that the shafts were only hardened on the outside. The machinist also checked it for true by running it at high speed on the lathe. I can bring it back and have him cut down the weld as well for no extra charge he says to ensure balance. Cutting and lathe work cost 125 dollars.

A few pics-

Both shafts cut-

  cutinputshafts.jpg (Size: 90 KB / Downloads: 874)

The threaded rod attachment between either side-

  inputshaftthread.jpg (Size: 85.6 KB / Downloads: 876)

And the 240 head screwed onto the 190 shaft. There is a difference in diameter between the two shafts, the 240 is about an 8th of an inch thicker shaft. This might have some bearing on the cover plate, I doubt it though

  inputshaftweldprep.jpg (Size: 89.7 KB / Downloads: 875)

Barring any failure of the shaft, it should drastically simplify everything outside the transmission. I checked a while earlier on clutch prices on the old buymbparts site, and it was like a 250 dollar difference in OEM clutches. This should save some money over time.

Will the larger gear affect anything?

Do you mean the splines on the exterior end? or the wider gear on interior end?

Interior.

Thats still all stock 190 stuff, hopefully it will work out great. I've just swapped the external splined portion of the shaft which changed the overall outside length so I can use all 240 clutch and flywheel stuff. Internally, the gearbox is all OEM.

The next possible interference could be from the 190 cover plate over the 240 splines. In this picture, you can see how close the tolerance is on the 240 splines and 240 cover plate. the 190 splines are slightly smaller, so if the tolerances are similar, I might have an issue fitting the plate over the input shaft, which would require more screwing around.


  inputcoverplate5.jpg (Size: 71.33 KB / Downloads: 869)


Ive got to get the other plate and check it out

No interference on the 190 cover plate, the inner diameters are the same. Fits nicely over the shaft.

Dropped off the input shaft and picked it up an hour later for a total welding cost of 5 bucks. heres a pic-

  inputwelded.jpg (Size: 90.33 KB / Downloads: 851)

Weld is nice and even, so in the interest of any additional strength, Im not going to cut it down. He did three welds, one in the groove, and two above that, widening the weld. I don't think it will really add anything, but I figured what the heck

Working on the jig now for the bellhousing swap, heres a pic of my duplicate input shaft cover plate-

  jigfrontplate.jpg (Size: 88.56 KB / Downloads: 848)

Jig is complete, here are a few pics. Ill clean up a few of the welds and maybe give it a little paint later on, but its time to bring out the hack saw again and cut the bell housings!

Ill get that done tonight or tomorrow, then I should be able to drop it off on monday for the final weld.

Once thats done, its a matter of cleaning up the inside of the 190 case and rear bolt pattern, then reassembly using the modified input shaft.


  jig1.jpg (Size: 79.15 KB / Downloads: 824)

  jig2.jpg (Size: 62.26 KB / Downloads: 819)

  jig3.jpg (Size: 76.6 KB / Downloads: 821)

Your input shaft will hold up fine. It's unlikely to see more than 300-400Nm. I ran a welded output shaft on my 4wd for a long time, it took up to 2000Nm and survived but I now have a one piece shaft I designed and had made then hardened.

excellent, thats good to hear. How much did it cost or how difficult was it to have something hardened if I may ask? That sounds like a pretty interesting setup you have.

Cut the bellhousings yet again and did a dry fit on the jig. I measured back 3 inches which was kind of a natural place to make my cuts.

Here is a pic of the patterns next to eachother-

  bellhousingpatterns.jpg (Size: 80.42 KB / Downloads: 800)

This is the 240 pattern being fitted to the jig-

  jig240pattern.jpg (Size: 79.93 KB / Downloads: 800)

this is flipping the jig over to fit the 190 case after bolting the 240 pattern-

  jigbolting.jpg (Size: 71.98 KB / Downloads: 796)

Here are a few pics of how it lines up from all sides, some of the gussets actually line right up, including the main spine on the bottom, but others will need to be removed or adapted. I need to fill in about a 1/2 by 4 inch gap up top as well with a plate-
This is the bottom view-

  jigbottom.jpg (Size: 71.25 KB / Downloads: 791)
This is from the left side, or what would be the driver side of the tranny-

  jigleftside.jpg (Size: 69.84 KB / Downloads: 788)
This is from the right side, or the passenger side of the tranny-

  jigrightside.jpg (Size: 69.93 KB / Downloads: 795)
And here is from the top, you can see the gap that needs to be resolved-

  jigtop.jpg (Size: 69.3 KB / Downloads: 792)

Im going to powerwash everything, clean out all the crud, put in my 45 degree cuts everywhere, wire brush it, and get it ready to be welded. I think a small plate will work just fine on the gap, which I will also rig up this weekend, or early next week. This is going to be one weird looking case once I'm done.

How well dose the clutch through out bearing slave bolt up/ line up?

That whole spacing and functionality is still unchanged since its all on one side of the weld and still OEM. If I manage to have this welded straight so the input shaft in in the center and its under control of the jig, all that stuff 'should' work properly and as designed. There are a couple things though-

The shift forks are SLIGHTLY different- In this pic, the whole relationship between the slave cylinder/input cover plate pattern/fork pivot point looks identical, but on the 5-speed the pivot and the slave pattern are actually about an 8th of an inch further out from the center than on the 4 speed. (the 5-speed is on the left)

  shiftforkpositions.jpg (Size: 81.02 KB / Downloads: 781)

The same slave cylinder bolts to both, but for some reason, the fork is slightly longer on the overdrive tranny. Ill see if I can dig up the shift forks and get a comparison shot of them as well.

My plan is to figure out which release bearing works best for this application. Here are a couple of pics of the two different models-

This is the 84 190 bearing, part # W0133-1621722

  190releasebearing.JPG (Size: 27.73 KB / Downloads: 782)
this is the 81 240 bearing, part # W0133-1618067

  240releasebearing.JPG (Size: 24.48 KB / Downloads: 785)
(both photos are 'borrowed' from buymbparts.biz)

They are pretty similar, except the 240 one looks thicker. If they both mount to the fork in the same way, I will see if I can use the 240 version on the 190 fork when this thing goes in a car. Ill probably just buy both when the time comes and play with them though.

ready to be welded, gaps are ok, not as tight as I wanted, but it should be no problem-

here are a few pics-

  bellweldprepleftside.jpg (Size: 69.94 KB / Downloads: 766)

  bellweldprepbottom.jpg (Size: 69.71 KB / Downloads: 763)

  bellweldpreptop.jpg (Size: 65.03 KB / Downloads: 761)

  bellweldpreprightside.jpg (Size: 69.85 KB / Downloads: 763)

Heres a pic of the gap a little closer-

  bellweldgap.jpg (Size: 49.46 KB / Downloads: 757)


Got kind of a weird idea about the gap, its almost like a perfect louver shape, and I was thinking it might be kind of neat to make a little door right there that could open, or to hook it up to some ductwork.

The only argument that I can come up with would be to control the temperature inside the bell housing. I can't really think of why I would do that apart from trying to attempt to cool down the clutch which is totally unnecessary for what im building, but i figured id put the idea out there.

I wont be dropping this off until monday where I can decide what the plan is. The gap is just begging to be utilized somehow, id hate to weld it closed without exploring all options, however useless. Give me a reason to do this!

Heat rises, so a little screen to keep dirt out would let some heat escape naturally.

(11-20-2009 06:50 PM)dropnosky Wrote:  excellent, thats good to hear. How much did it cost or how difficult was it to have something hardened if I may ask? That sounds like a pretty interesting setup you have.

The hardening was very easy. I posted it off with a note saying what the material was and what I wanted. It came back 3 days later with an invoice attached. Cost was about $US80.
They heated it, oil quenched and I don't know if it was tempered or not. A neat row of hardness tester indents along the shaft shows that they did test their results.

The problem was, the hardening (or rather the quenching) caused it to shrink a little in length and grow in diameter. Changing the female end from tight to a slip fit and changing the male end from a slip fit to a light press fit. This made assembly trickier than intended.

Its at the welder. With this being thanksgiving week and all, Im not sure If I can expect this back for a little bit.
After this, I think Im going to take it back over to the machine shop and have the bellhousing bolt pattern measured for square against the rear of the case, and lightly fly cut if necessary to make them exact. I figure its worth it just in case there was a little tweakage during welding.

Even the slightest bit off could be really destructive.

Welding is done! Total cost for bell weld was 75 dollars. Here are a few pics, ended up just welding that gap closed as a final decision just to keep things simple.
Off to the machine shop!

couple views from the inside of the bell-

  bellweld1.jpg (Size: 80.93 KB / Downloads: 703)

  bellweld2.jpg (Size: 74.31 KB / Downloads: 704)

Some views from the outside-

  bellweldbottom.jpg (Size: 78.52 KB / Downloads: 700)

  bellwelddriverside.jpg (Size: 78.09 KB / Downloads: 702)

  bellweldpassside.jpg (Size: 78.63 KB / Downloads: 706)

  bellweldgap2.jpg (Size: 72.58 KB / Downloads: 706)

Sweet!

Looking really good, and 2nd on the sweet

(11-25-2009 05:45 PM)CID Vicious Wrote:  Sweet!

same here a 5spd would rock on my 240turbo

Still my favorite thread! Good job brotha! I'm hoping that the thing doesn't need to be cut any to keep it true and hope even more that all the cutting/welding throughout the evolution doesnt affect the final product. Anyway, thanks for showing us the way. I'm going to keep an extra eye out for suitable donor 5 speeds in the bone yards now.

A job well done. This looks WAAAY easier than the previous attempt For shits and giggles why dont you give me a list of post ID's you want to keep and I'll split them into a new thread to clean up this whole mess. Short of it all was, extend the input shaft and slice and weld the bellhousing?

sure thing, I will probably be able to put the thing completely together tomorrow night and be done, then I will go through and see whats relevant. If you want and to save us trouble, I can just post a complete new thread after Im all done from the perspective of done project vs on going experiment.

The housing has been at the machine shop forever again, but I was able to pick it up this morning, it looks like the level of off square on the weld is between 10 and 15 thousandths, which is better than I thought and something I can live with.

Tomorrow, Ill grind out the aborted corner weld I still have to deal with, and put this mo-fo together.

(12-07-2009 02:56 PM)dropnosky Wrote:  If you want and to save us trouble, I can just post a complete new thread after Im all done from the perspective of done project vs on going experiment.

Sounds like a good idea ™

Great patience & work on the 5 speed. Looking forward to the finished product...

Success! its back together! Reassembly took about 45 minutes after I spent an hour while sorting all the mixed parts. Once that was done, I managed to get it together reasonably easily with the exception of a spring that works with the overdrive, which Im not exactly sure how it fits and will have to review my early photos. Otherwise, everything fits!

Over the months that this thing has been apart, I managed to lose one bolt for the back plate and I have to replace or repair a peg that I totally destroyed when I took it apart. (I thought that I would be able to cannibalize some pieces from the 240, but no go, the pegs are shorter.)

I need to grind out all the weld on the aborted corner idea, I think its definitely interfering with the large reverse gear on the output shaft. Also, I need to cut one of the drain plugs to make a tap and chase the threads of the bottom plug hole which was warped with welding. Also, I think that I mixed up which shift arm goes where on the first two, I need to review the early pics. After that, should be able to do another couple of dry fits, then a final reassembly. The 240 output flange fit right over the shaft, and is the same internal length, I should be able to use a 240 clutch and driveshaft easily!

I am officially done with this project apart from finish work and I will probably have it powdercoated, I will put together a more streamlined thread on the mod as requested.

Final analysis for bell weld option-

-250 190 5-speed transmission
-100 240 4-speed transmission
-65 190 gasket kit
-125 Input shaft gut and lathe work
-5 welding input shaft
-75 welding bell housing

Total- $620 dollars

Jig Costs

-75 small plate
-70 large plate
(all welding was done for free by myself for the jig)

Total- $145 dollars

Total if you were to do the same thing $765 dollars
VS potential $800 for a euro version.

Slightly cheaper, but depending on who you are, maybe not worth it. I thought it was totally worth it.

Its also worth mentioning that I really could have easily drilled the jig myself, but I had machine shops make the plates and that drove up the costs. Also, if you have welding and machining skills, it would save you even more money.

Some pics of the transmission together-
This is from the front with the new input shaft end-

  weldedbellinputshaft.jpg (Size: 77.13 KB / Downloads: 549)
The spring I did not put in right now, it attaches to a little lever that connects to the overdrive detent mechansim. Gotta figure out what it does and how it fits for next reassembly. Frankly, I dont have the slightest F-ing idea how it goes back in, but trial and error will solve that-

  overdrivespring.jpg (Size: 38.11 KB / Downloads: 549)

View from the bottom-

  completebottom.jpg (Size: 70.35 KB / Downloads: 547)
view from the driver side-

  completedriverside.jpg (Size: 69.39 KB / Downloads: 551)
view from the passenger side, you can see here the little peg piece that I ruined, actually the exterior plate part of the peg, I might be able to bend it back with some heat, or I have to buy another one-

  completepassengerside.jpg (Size: 70.62 KB / Downloads: 552)
View from the top-

  completetop.jpg (Size: 66.58 KB / Downloads: 549)

Next step is find shifting rods and a shifter!

I saw them on eBay once from a euro w123 300d 5spd still kicking my self for not buying them!!!

THATS how it goes, evidently I totally spaced the shift arm positions. Long, medium, then small facing opposite direction


  correctshitarm.jpg (Size: 81.1 KB / Downloads: 536)

I have been following along with you on this project. congratulations.
I have reread the thread a couple times and some sections several times to get it through the bone structure .
seems simple enough, slice and dice it, line it up, bolt it down and weld it, no problem.

Do you have a copy of the haynes 190 shop manual? I have one I got at a swap meet, have no idea why, since Iam not interested in a gasser 190. this manual part# 1643 covers the 5 spd trans with good exploded views of the trans.

that little spring is refered to as the shift mechanism spring.

I`ll see if I can take some pic of that section and post.

I have the 717.404.with 5th as direct. and an old iron box 240 trans. the bell is detachable, but the design of the cover, not sure it it would be a good match. wondering if an auto trans bell would be the same shape and line up.

Charlie

---

hope these post.

---

last 3, hope this helps.

Charlie

---

oops, I forgot the last one and posted one pic twice

thankyou thankyou thankyou. I probably would have screwed around for quite some time before I got it in there right. Amazing, Ive been off and on contacting MB classic centers, MB dealerships, surfing forums, going throught mitchell and alldata, and here all the necessary information is in a haynes manual!

Probably a copy right down the street from me!

I am going to get this haynes manual. Is the 190 still a getrag? Whats the model?

At your service, Sir

This copy of the Haynes is for the 190E 2.3 with 717.412 trans and the 190E 2.3-16 with the 717.410 trans.

This manual seems to actually be more through than the copy for the w123.

dosn`t say anything about Getrag, but probably is. the one I pulled out of the 86 2.3-16V has Getrag on the side.

Charlie

contacted hayes about finding this book, this is their response-

"Thank you for your email. Unfortunately book number 1643 is not one of our part numbers. The only manual we have for the 190E is number 3450 and you will find this on our UK site at http://www.haynes.co.uk as we do not offer it on our US site."

Looks like the book is still in print, which is great!

(12-23-2009 07:53 PM)dropnosky Wrote:  contacted hayes about finding this book, this is their response-

"Thank you for your email. Unfortunately book number 1643 is not one of our part numbers. The only manual we have for the 190E is number 3450 and you will find this on our UK site at http://www.haynes.co.uk as we do not offer it on our US site."

Looks like the book is still in print, which is great!

I was looking in the Haynes site. the W190 manual I have # 1643, is the same manual they show with a new # 63015. In the top right corner they show the old # in brackets.

http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/store...&langId=-1

Charlie

Yesterday I pulled a 4-spd from a 80 240D with the idea of eventually putting together a 201 5 spd. trouble is, this is a nice tight box and I really don`t want to destroy it. what to do? well anyway I took a few measurements between the 2 transmissions. hope this helps add to the thread looking at some various angles.

Any one know the cost of turning a piece of bar stock the dimentions of the 240 input shats, and having the splines cut and hardened? then weld this to the 5 spd input shaft.

Charlie

---

additiohnal pictures

the 707.404 is the 5-spd with 5th as 1:1. it is out of a 86 190E 2.3 16V.

interesting how those input cover plates are totally different on that 1-1 ratio 5 speed. I wonder if any of the bolt holes line up between the two? looks like no off hand

My guess is that it would probably cost more to make that than to just get the input shaft from MB classic center, depending on availability, but thats only a guess, we need to contact them.

The other option as suggested to me several times would be to make a custom clutch, orrr use the 190 clutch since they both use the same pilot bearing. You are right, if the 4 speed is good, there is no sense wasting it when you could make the 5-speed stock clutch work. Could be as simple as a small spacer to hold the pilot bearing out further.

Im kind of teetering back and forth between whether modifying the input shafts was the best option since it basically wastes an entire transmission to do so. In my case, I still think it made sense, especially since I sliced and diced the 240 case, but its probably simple and easy to work out a hybrid clutch that would leave you with two working transmissions in the end.

Its like watching the dukes of hazard movie, all I could think of was- well, that jump was cool, but they destroyed HOW many chargers that will never exist again to shoot these scenes? The 4-speed is rare enough without thinning the herd through artificial means.

The splines on both shafts are almost in the same place despite the overall length differences, I bet you could use the flywheel and pressure plate from a 240 sandwiching the 190 friction disc and modify the 240 flywheel to hold the pilot bearing out further to support the shaft.

What about making an adapter plate using the 190 flywheel and starter in it stock location and relocating the oil filter housing on the 61#???

Thats a cool idea, I wonder if the starter would interfere with the injection pump though?

The real question would be if the 123 starter has the same teeth and same depth as the 201 starter, or if the 201 starter can work on the other side of the motor and start a 123.

That way you could just figure a way to bolt the 201 flywheel to the 617 motor, and either use the 123 starter with the 201 flywheel, or the 201 starter and flywheel together.

If you could just swap flywheels and resolve how the starter interacts, all the problems would be solved

heard back from the classic center-

"Input shaft 124-260-23-02 $520.00 1 week lead time"

Available, but not cost effective

You could always use a Hi-Torque starter, they can be be made to suit any vehicle and are about half the size of OEM.

(01-13-2010 04:58 PM)dropnosky Wrote:  heard back from the classic center-

"Input shaft 124-260-23-02 $520.00 1 week lead time"

Available, but not cost effective

Ok, I forwarded the wrong part number to the classic center. This is the price for the input shaft on the 190E 5-speed, which has the tapered roller bearing seating surfaces and whatnot, so maybe more complicated and expensive. I have emailed the classic center again with the correct transmission part number.

Ok, got another quick, informative response from Tom Hanson over at MB classic center-

Input shaft for an 81 4-speed-

"123-260-14-20 input shaft $262.00 1 week away"

Tom is a good guy. I recommend calling him and letting him know what you are doing. He likes hair brained ideas

Ive been annoying the holy hell out of him all week trying to research linkage rods. I think I will call him when I intend to give him money, so as to put him in a good mood after the dozen emails we've exchanged full of perplexing cryptic questions from me.
The shifter mechanism is way worse than the linkage rods, its like 50 little parts and no assembly number.

Boy, if there was ever an argument for grabbing the linkage rods and shifter mechanism as you grab the tranny, this would be it. Unfortunately, for my project I have done everything through the mail with out of state junkyards.

Charmalu, I recommend going back to the yard and grabbing those parts if you haven't and if its possible. The trans part number does not help in searching any other linkage part numbers, you need a VIN.

End of the story is that I will be buying a total of 9 linkage rods, one set from each of the 3 diagrams below, for 3 separate linkage options. One of them has to work.

Some diagrams-
   
   

  pic32254.jpg (Size: 429.76 KB / Downloads: 303)

As a matter of fact, I do have the 5 spd shifter and the 3 shift rods from the 86 190E. I also knocked off the VIN plate from the door post.

I usually try to remember to knock the plate off if Iam taking something major. I have a whole stack of plates from various cars .

this 5 spd I have from the 2.6 16V is totally different than the one you have. the levers on the box, fit on shafts that are splined, similar to the old slope back 4 spd iron box. your 5 spd has arms like the 4 spd with a bolt going into the center.
I`ll take a close up picture in the morning of both sides for comparison and post, now that I have it all clean and pretty.

Charlie